Topic: Test Drive: 2015 Subaru WRX CVT

[Noto]

That Civic Si in the picture is just a plain-jane Civic with alloys and a sunroof. It was never the performance model.

I don't care about trim pricing.  I was simply stating in my original post that the SI trim that he had apparently 'held the road' better than the next generation.  They drove the 2006 SI and found the suspension to be similar to their 2004 or 2005 (don't know, don't care), but the availability of the SI or SIR, whatever, only with the manual meant that the Civic was no longer a contender for them.

Manual transmissions are not desirable to the majority of North Americans.

[HeliDriver]

That Civic Si in the picture is just a plain-jane Civic with alloys and a sunroof. It was never the performance model.

I don't care about trim pricing.  I was simply stating in my original post that the SI trim that he had apparently 'held the road' better than the next generation.  They drove the 2006 SI and found the suspension to be similar to their 2004 or 2005 (don't know, don't care), but the availability of the SI or SIR, whatever, only with the manual meant that the Civic was no longer a contender for them.

Manual transmissions are not desirable to the majority of North Americans.

Yeah, there has been a steady dumbing-down of the Civic over the years.

It's sad that nowadays only the top model in the lineup is an above-average performer. It used to be that every Civic (even the lowly ones with automatics  ) had a certain amount of driving fun baked into them. To think that you used to be able to get a full double wishbone suspension in an economy car...

[2JDM]

Saw an STI when I was at dealership for an oil change in this 'Galaxy Blue Silica'.  It had me staring at it.
If I end up bringing one home it would be in that colour (minus the wing)

Hot damn...

[Noto]

To think that you used to be able to get a full double wishbone suspension in an economy car...

^^ This.  RIP.

[johngenx]

Yup.  Corolla always had economy car stuff like a beam axle, etc.  It's mission was (and still is) just to be economical.  The Civic was mostly the same, but added a little zip into the mix with some nice stuff like that.  Even though some of their cars were FWD (Prelude SR, Civic SiR, Integra R) Honda added them to the NSX and S2K to create a decades long roster of pretty desirable machines.

Now they chase Toyota by trying to sell as many CR-Vs as Toyota sells RAV4s.  And Toyota in the meantime loses it's way in the other direction and gives us the FR-S.  My brain is going to explode!!

[Snowman]

A performance machine like this with any kind of auto transmission, let alone a CVT, makes no sense to me.

So a GTR or Porsche 911 with PDK makes no sense to you?

Perhaps because it's over your head....

Agree on the PDK. After driving a few with them it would be hard not to buy a Porsche without one.

[Noto]

there's been a steady dumbing down of every car, mostly in the name of saving a minute amount of fuel.  this is why they are introducing electric steering, automatics and this cvt garbage on the WRX.

I agree wholeheartedly that it's ridiculous to try and eek out every last drop of fuel savings at the expense of great driving feel - particularly the electric power steering.  I care a lot about steering and suspension because they can play a lot with accident avoidance (i.e. safety).  1MPG should be sought in places like Mazda has done with skyactiv - reduce friction, etc.  Subaru needs to do this with their AWD system - focus on reducing driveline losses.

The CVT was not, IMO, a bad idea.  Everyone says it's one of the best on the market, and some are even starting to say that it's better for driving than the 9-speeds that are being introduced to match the fuel economy of a CVT.  The little ticks of a CVT, being the slow-to-engage nature, for example, can be ironed out (Autos.ca, keep complaining!!).  ...but to bash all automatics, and in particular, CVTs, is to ignore their potential and desirability. 

I, for one, will never buy a manual, and I bet that 95% of people on this forum have at least one car that's an automatic.

I would still gladly sacrifice 1MPG -hell, 2MPG! - to retain the mechanical feeling of steering, though.

[ThePointblank]

I agree wholeheartedly that it's ridiculous to try and eek out every last drop of fuel savings at the expense of great driving feel - particularly the electric power steering.  I care a lot about steering and suspension because they can play a lot with accident avoidance (i.e. safety).  1MPG should be sought in places like Mazda has done with skyactiv - reduce friction, etc.  Subaru needs to do this with their AWD system - focus on reducing driveline losses.

The CVT was not, IMO, a bad idea.  Everyone says it's one of the best on the market, and some are even starting to say that it's better for driving than the 9-speeds that are being introduced to match the fuel economy of a CVT.  The little ticks of a CVT, being the slow-to-engage nature, for example, can be ironed out (Autos.ca, keep complaining!!).  ...but to bash all automatics, and in particular, CVTs, is to ignore their potential and desirability. 

I, for one, will never buy a manual, and I bet that 95% of people on this forum have at least one car that's an automatic.

I would still gladly sacrifice 1MPG -hell, 2MPG! - to retain the mechanical feeling of steering, though.

Disagree; I've driven vehicles, that while have the traditional power steering or mechanical steering, the drive feel was terrible. Conversely, I've driven vehicles with electric power steering that was superior compared to traditional steering. It's all about how well it is implemented.

Auto makers need to spend more time with their electric power steering systems to enhance feel and handling. I've read that while with traditional power steering, it takes a while for them to adjust and change everything to get the drive feel right, while with electric power steering, they can change things very quickly through software and send it out on a test drive to check the results. At this point, the implementation is more important than the architecture; the traditional hydraulic power steering got to where it is today through decades of refinement and development. More time must be spent on tuning the handling of EPS systems; some manufacturers do this better than others (*cough* Toyota, looking at you *cough*), and some do it better on certain vehicles than others.

[Brendan McAleer]

Disagree; I've driven vehicles, that while have the traditional power steering or mechanical steering, the drive feel was terrible. Conversely, I've driven vehicles with electric power steering that was superior compared to traditional steering. It's all about how well it is implemented.

Good point - the steering on the Genesis sedan, for instance, was actually pretty good considering. Obviously all we enthusiasts want everything to feel like a Lotus Elise through the wheel, but that's not very practical.

[dirtyjeffer]

my colleague with the WRX (6 speed manual) mentioned the new WRX is better than his previous two cars in pretty much every way (2010 WRX and 2012 FRS)...he did say his previous WRX felt more powerful (despite the new one having comparable power on paper), but said in terms of a daily driver, it was vastly improved in every way...he also said it is MUCH better on fuel.

[Noto]

Disagree; I've driven vehicles, that while have the traditional power steering or mechanical steering, the drive feel was terrible. Conversely, I've driven vehicles with electric power steering that was superior compared to traditional steering. It's all about how well it is implemented.

Good point - the steering on the Genesis sedan, for instance, was actually pretty good considering. Obviously all we enthusiasts want everything to feel like a Lotus Elise through the wheel, but that's not very practical.

I don't disagree - but on the whole, electric steering systems have not been as good as the mechanical setups they replace.  The Forester is the example I'm pointing to.

[johngenx]

The STi can be sold manual-only, but the reality of the market today is that if you're going to try to get any sort of volume, you need two pedal configurations.  The WRX is a much more mass-appeal car than the STi and Subaru needs to move cars to make the model work.

Would I buy the CVT?  No.  But, it's a smart business move.  Also, CVTs are gaining not only consumer acceptance, but thanks to many makers pushing them hard, mass market consumers now see them as a step up from a conventional AT.

[Brendan McAleer]

The STi can be sold manual-only, but the reality of the market today is that if you're going to try to get any sort of volume, you need two pedal configurations.  The WRX is a much more mass-appeal car than the STi and Subaru needs to move cars to make the model work.

Would I buy the CVT?  No.  But, it's a smart business move.  Also, CVTs are gaining not only consumer acceptance, but thanks to many makers pushing them hard, mass market consumers now see them as a step up from a conventional AT.

It's also fun. Surprisingly so. Look, I'm with the rest of you: I learned to drive a stick when I was eight years old, I made my wife learn to drive manual before we got married, I drive a manual transmission ~330hp WRX and would not buy a car without a stick shift unless I had a manual project car to beat on. However, I just don't think Subaru has the wherewithal to come up with a dual-clutch gearbox that's any good for a single model in their lineup, so this is the next best thing. I liked it. Tommi Makkinen told me he wished the STI came with a CVT.

[Noto]

the cvt should be relegated to the run of the mill subarus if they insist on building them. at least subaru still offers the manual.  most other companies are forcing the automatic (and that $2k extra charge, plus the higher maintenance costs) on all of their customers.

I think Brendan hits it right here - it doesn't make financial sense for Subaru to develop 2+ types of automatics.  Here, the only 'difference' between automatics (now that they're retiring the 4AT and 5AT) is the regular and "high torque" differentiation.  It makes a lot of sense.

If the CVT is continuously tweaked to be better, I bet its potential will really come out.  Hell, even Nissan now puts D-step in the fricken Sentra.  It'll trickle.

It's also fun. Surprisingly so. ... I liked it. Tommi Makkinen told me he wished the STI came with a CVT.

'nuf said.

[ThePointblank]

Good point - the steering on the Genesis sedan, for instance, was actually pretty good considering. Obviously all we enthusiasts want everything to feel like a Lotus Elise through the wheel, but that's not very practical.

I don't disagree - but on the whole, electric steering systems have not been as good as the mechanical setups they replace.  The Forester is the example I'm pointing to.

It's a matter of manufacturers needing to spend more time on such systems to refine them some more. BMW is one that has done a lot of work with their EPS systems, and it shows. EPS is only a fairly recent development, while the traditional hydraulic power steering has been around for a few decades.

[HeliDriver]

^^ Really? I've read nothing but bad things about BMW's EPS. Even the latest M3/4 got panned by Car and Driver for its complete lack of steering feel, IIRC.

Porsche seems to have had the most success with EPS, but even then I've read plenty of grumbling that the Cayman's steering isn't quite what it used to be. Maybe the next-gen will finally catch up.

VW has also gotten some pretty good press about the EPS in the GTI, but then, the expectations are probably a bit lower for that class of car.

[ThePointblank]

^^ Really? I've read nothing but bad things about BMW's EPS. Even the latest M3/4 got panned by Car and Driver for its complete lack of steering feel, IIRC.

Porsche seems to have had the most success with EPS, but even then I've read plenty of grumbling that the Cayman's steering isn't quite what it used to be. Maybe the next-gen will finally catch up.

VW has also gotten some pretty good press about the EPS in the GTI, but then, the expectations are probably a bit lower for that class of car.

Car and Driver liked and actually preferred the BMW 5 series electric power steering over the hydraulic system. They said that the electric system had a tighter, more connected feeling in straight-ahead driving.

[johngenx]

The 911 might have been one of the last cars to be sold without any power assist in the steering.  The 964 was the first model that had any type of assist - and it wasn't power steering in the way we know it - it was an "assist" as opposed to conventional hydraulic systems.  Porsche has long been all about steering feel.