Topic: Rumour Mill: Ford Building Prius Fighter

[ArticSteve]

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to know that take rate on the Highlander Hybrid

60:1

[EV-Light]

better late than never.

more competition hopefully pushes everyone to make a better product.
and maybe being "17 years late" gives Ford a chance to learn from what Toyota's been doing.

I thought the C-MAX was supposed to be the Prius fighter...:-p

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Quicker, quieter, much nicer interior, much better dynamics, and it still has excellent fuel consumption. Pretty easy argument to make.

You're talking about the C-Max, right? I had a read a few reviews that seemed complimentary.

Yup. The C-max's exterior styling is a bit off, but the car itself works pretty well.

[EV-Light]

Quicker, quieter, much nicer interior, much better dynamics, and it still has excellent fuel consumption. Pretty easy argument to make.

You're talking about the C-Max, right? I had a read a few reviews that seemed complimentary.

Yup. The C-max's exterior styling is a bit off, but the car itself works pretty well.

While I agree, the fact that Ford lied about the fuel consumption killed it. I know of at least one person that had a Prius, tried a C-MAX and went back.

Having said that, the C-MAX shines in the used market - where depreciation killed it!

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Quicker, quieter, much nicer interior, much better dynamics, and it still has excellent fuel consumption. Pretty easy argument to make.

You're talking about the C-Max, right? I had a read a few reviews that seemed complimentary.

Yup. The C-max's exterior styling is a bit off, but the car itself works pretty well.

While I agree, the fact that Ford lied about the fuel consumption killed it. I know of at least one person that had a Prius, tried a C-MAX and went back.

Having said that, the C-MAX shines in the used market - where depreciation killed it!

Ford followed the EPA rules and revised the numbers when the rules were changed. That's life.

That being said, it's got 50 more hp than the Prius V and the difference in fuel economy is 0.3L/100km. Seems like a decent trade off.

Consumer Reports got 37mpg combined with the 188hp C-Max and 41mpg with the 134hp Prius V, which is pretty decent confirmation.

[Ex-airbalancer]

Wasnt that hybrid van thing, C max maybe, supposed to take on the Prius??

Ford didn't know what market it was entering with the C less.   They lied about the mileage, it became very public, they had to reimburse owners and surprise, surprise .... sales have collapsed.   Hence another kick at the can.

And while 50% of 2005-2012 Escape Hybrids had AWD, and there is no current generation Escape Hybrid, and the C-Max was supposed to be the replacement for the Escape Hybrid AWD, AWD is not available on the C-Max. You'd think this would be a sufficiently popular feature to make it a profitable option. C-less indeed!

I'm with you. If Toyota can get their sh!t together and deliver a RAV4 Hybrid with the Camry hybrid powertrain and swoopy Prius styling, they will lock out everybody else. If GM can beat them with a Voltec ute, it could be anyone's game.

Would not that be the Lexus nx300?

 

[bortojo]

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to know that take rate on the Highlander Hybrid.  They're the top model by a serious margin, but Toyota keeps building them, so it must make financial sense.  Maybe the low volumes are more than offset by large margins.

I've also wondered about why they don't "drop" the driveline in the Sienna as they did the RX.

Just FYI, Toyota Canada's published sales numbers at the end of June for the Highlander and Highlander hybrid were 4400 and 863.  So the take rate for the highlander is about 16%.  For Camry it is 17%.  Also 13% of all Lexus vehicles sold in Canada are hybrids.  A RAV4 Hybrid would make a lot of sense, I am surprised that we haven't seen one yet.

[bortojo]

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to know that take rate on the Highlander Hybrid

60:1

.

Not even close.  6:1 See attachment.

[EV Dan]

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to know that take rate on the Highlander Hybrid.  They're the top model by a serious margin, but Toyota keeps building them, so it must make financial sense.  Maybe the low volumes are more than offset by large margins.

I've also wondered about why they don't "drop" the driveline in the Sienna as they did the RX.

Just FYI, Toyota Canada's published sales numbers at the end of June for the Highlander and Highlander hybrid were 4400 and 863.  So the take rate for the highlander is about 16%.  For Camry it is 17%.  Also 13% of all Lexus vehicles sold in Canada are hybrids.  A RAV4 Hybrid would make a lot of sense, I am surprised that we haven't seen one yet.

Where did they sell the LANDCRUISER?

[Ex-airbalancer]

Ram has a Prius fighter already




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[ArticSteve]

Just FYI, Toyota Canada's published sales numbers at the end of June for the Highlander and Highlander hybrid were 4400 and 863.  So the take rate for the highlander is about 16%.  For Camry it is 17%.  Also 13% of all Lexus vehicles sold in Canada are hybrids.  A RAV4 Hybrid would make a lot of sense, I am surprised that we haven't seen one yet.

Those Highlander numbers are so skewed.   Probably a horde of the old units being discounted out.  Furthermore, those stats show the Camry and Highlander almost even which is absolutely absurd.  Closest stats I could find to year end June/14 is May/14 in US numbers that are more relevant anyways.  Difficult to read, but to the end of May, numbers show Camry 17897 and Highlander at 1356. These are all Hybrid stats.      BTW, US dealers received the  Highlander first by 60-90 days.



http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=396781

 Toyota May 2014 Highlights and Overall Sales Results


Model May-14 May -13 May-DSR % change May -14 YTD May-13 YTD YTD-DSR % change
Yaris 1,616 1,778 -12.5% 7,210 11,179 -36.0%
Corolla 36,611 27,997 +25.9% 143,409 132,514 +7.4%
Camry 49,584 39,216 +21.8% 181,876 171,756 +5.1%
           
Prius Liftback 15,944 15,330 +0.2% 51,760 62,743 -18.1%
Prius v 3,567 3,732 -8.0% 11,971 15,629 -24.0%
Prius c 4,590 3,782 +16.9% 16,992 17,133 -1.6%
             
Prius PHEV 2,692 678 +282.3% 7,729 3,630 +111.3%
           
Camry Hybrid 5,199 4,265 +17.4% 17,897 19,956 -11.0%
Avalon Hybrid 1,957 1,514 +24.5% 6,662 6,954 -4.9%
Highlander Hybrid 355 545 -37.3% 1,356 2,410 -44.2%
           
CT 1,762 1,623 +4.5% 6,816 6,039 +12.0%
ESh 1,048 1,434 -5.4% 5,845 6,710 -13.6%
RXh 837 885 -8.9% 3,334 3,998 -17.3%
           
RAV4EV 149 84 +70.8% 455 364 +24.0%
           
Toyota Sales Totals 243,236 207,952 +12.6% 963,893 913,556 +4.7%



Good Car/ Bad Car puts total Highlanders to end of May at 60,000 units.  So not 60:1, but 43.1

Check the math though. 

[X-Traction]

The article asks if Ford is too late. Definitely not but they have to get it right. I think all other manufacturers should go kiss Toyota's ring for making a hybrid market with the Prius.


If Ford had any b*lls it would offer an Escape Hybrid and beat Toyota to that very sizable market and then kill that C-Less turkey off.

My understanding is that the proportion of Escape Hybrids to non-hybrids in the last two years of production, 2011 and 2012, fell off severely (from an already low proportion of 3%(?)).  But I don't know if that was from lack of promotion of the Hybrid or limited numbers built for sale.  It it was purely customer reluctance to buy them, then I can see Ford not offering a current-generation Escape Hybrid.  It makes less sense that AWD is not available on the C-Max. And I expect the market to shift in the direction of hybrids, so Ford should have a more capable small hybrid suv.

[rrocket]

Am excited to see what new Prius brings to the table

[EV Dan]

Ram has a Prius fighter already

Was the truck on a hoist?

[mixmanmash]

Ram has a Prius fighter already

Was the truck on a hoist?

No.  Just in vacuum chamber.

I looked on the cleanmpg forum and the 2nd tank is 41.3 mpg:

" Climbed from 3,100' to 5,100' with multiple trips to 7,100' on this tank. Ran AC at darn near 70 mph for 7-hours while driving between Amarillo and Flagstaff. Impressive in my book! "

I wonder if the final drive ratio is different on the 4x2 diesel versus 4x4 diesel?  Maybe Tooscoops can chime in with that answer as I wasn't able to find info on it.

[bye]

I did shop the Ford Escape Hybrid back when it was available and it wasn't much more efficient than the Ford Focus I was driving.

So glad I waited and bought a pure EV for my commute.

[Noto]

I'm with you. If Toyota can get their sh!t together and deliver a RAV4 Hybrid with the Camry hybrid powertrain and swoopy Prius styling, they will lock out everybody else. If GM can beat them with a Voltec ute, it could be anyone's game.

A Rav4 Hybrid is most certainly in the works now that the NX300h has hit production.  It's not atypical for a manufacturer to sell the top model (or a higher tier a la Lexus over the Toyota) first.  It all comes down to pricing, and that's not just with Toyota - the Voltec powertrain in a 'ute would fall prey to the same peril.

Quicker, quieter, much nicer interior, much better dynamics, and it still has excellent fuel consumption. Pretty easy argument to make.

Ford followed the EPA rules and revised the numbers when the rules were changed. That's life.

That being said, it's got 50 more hp than the Prius V and the difference in fuel economy is 0.3L/100km. Seems like a decent trade off.

Consumer Reports got 37mpg combined with the 188hp C-Max and 41mpg with the 134hp Prius V, which is pretty decent confirmation.

umm, are you suggesting that the difference between 37 and 41 mpg is 0.3L/100km?
It's 6.57L/100km vs 5.74L/100km.  The math suggests that 0.83L/100km differs, not 0.3.

...but I wouldn't say CR's numbers are telltale.  The Prius is rated at 51/48/50 (city/highway/combined) and the C-Max at 42/37/40.  If you put the C-Max against the Prius V, then it's still 44/40/42, which is attributable most to weight-gain.

Peak horsepower numbers tell very little, and the C-Max's paltry 129 ft-lbs of torque is likely more of an issue than the egg-like shape.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I'm with you. If Toyota can get their sh!t together and deliver a RAV4 Hybrid with the Camry hybrid powertrain and swoopy Prius styling, they will lock out everybody else. If GM can beat them with a Voltec ute, it could be anyone's game.

A Rav4 Hybrid is most certainly in the works now that the NX300h has hit production.  It's not atypical for a manufacturer to sell the top model (or a higher tier a la Lexus over the Toyota) first.  It all comes down to pricing, and that's not just with Toyota - the Voltec powertrain in a 'ute would fall prey to the same peril.

Quicker, quieter, much nicer interior, much better dynamics, and it still has excellent fuel consumption. Pretty easy argument to make.

Ford followed the EPA rules and revised the numbers when the rules were changed. That's life.

That being said, it's got 50 more hp than the Prius V and the difference in fuel economy is 0.3L/100km. Seems like a decent trade off.

Consumer Reports got 37mpg combined with the 188hp C-Max and 41mpg with the 134hp Prius V, which is pretty decent confirmation.

umm, are you suggesting that the difference between 37 and 41 mpg is 0.3L/100km?
It's 6.57L/100km vs 5.74L/100km.  The math suggests that 0.83L/100km differs, not 0.3.

...but I wouldn't say CR's numbers are telltale.  The Prius is rated at 51/48/50 (city/highway/combined) and the C-Max at 42/37/40.  If you put the C-Max against the Prius V, then it's still 44/40/42, which is attributable most to weight-gain.

Peak horsepower numbers tell very little, and the C-Max's paltry 129 ft-lbs of torque is likely more of an issue than the egg-like shape.

37mpg and 41mpg are the numbers that CR got for the C-Max and Prius V. It's pretty easy to get variances because the tests can be at different times of year and different traffic conditions.
The 0.3L/100km is the difference in the combined EPA numbers for the C-Max and Prius V. Not much point in comparing the regular Prius and C-Max, they're not going after the same customers.

129ft-lbs is the gasoline engine's torque. As far as I can see, Ford hasn't listed the electric motor's contribution to the torque number. It will go 0-60 in 8.8 seconds, which is about 2 seconds faster than the Prius V.

[Noto]

Not much point in comparing the regular Prius and C-Max, they're not going after the same customers.

Ford would have you believe that, but Toyota would beg to differ.  The regular Prius is actually 3" longer than the C-Max, and the Prius V is almost 8" longer.  The Prius V is quite a bit larger than the C-Max.

Just because Ford says that they compete does not exclude the regular Prius from the competition.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Not much point in comparing the regular Prius and C-Max, they're not going after the same customers.

Ford would have you believe that, but Toyota would beg to differ.  The regular Prius is actually 3" longer than the C-Max, and the Prius V is almost 8" longer.  The Prius V is quite a bit larger than the C-Max.

Just because Ford says that they compete does not exclude the regular Prius from the competition.

So if Toyota says something it's true, but not if Ford says it? Interesting assumption.

As measured by CR, C-Max splits the difference between the two in every interior dimension, tending to be closer to the Prius V than the smaller Prius, including trunk space where it's much larger than the Prius and only 4ft³ smaller than the Prius V.

CR also measured a 0-60 time of 8.4 seconds versus 10.6 for the Prius and 10.7 for the Prius V. A fair trade off for some people for the difference in fuel consumption. It should be noted that CR got better city fuel economy with the C-Max (35mpg) than the Prius (32mpg) and Prius V (33mpg). It was on the highway where the C-Max fell behind (38 vs 55 and 47 respectively).