Author Topic: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours  (Read 13019 times)

Offline Autos_Editor

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Chevrolet Volt tackles distant road trips stress-free ' at least, range-wise.

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Offline pcsp

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 09:27:32 am »
"...according to trade bible Automotive News’ sources. However, the Volt would no longer be marketed as a mass-market vehicle, insisted Mahoney. “There’s a Northeast and a West Coast market for Volt,” he told Forbes. “And there’s nothing wrong with that.”

I think the new marketing strategy makes much sense. Just because the Volt CAN basically be all things to all people, doesn't mean that it should always be presented in this light. I assume the Northeast will appreciate the range extending feature, and that the West Coast will appreciate the EV nature of the vehicle. Emphasizing both in marketing can actually detract from a focused message and present the vehicle as a "compromise". How many times have we heard "it's not a true EV". I guess a true EV with street cred would involve running out of juice at least once and the owner eating his/her lunch on the side of the road while waiting for a tow.

The 3 cylinder range extending "generator" is a good move. Just enough to serve the purpose, i.e. get to a charging destination. Not surprised about the lack of charging facilities. Makes the Volt a perfect vehicle for these times of transition.

Offline jyarkony

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 10:11:16 am »
As others have said, a crossover variant is far more important than cramming five seats into the Volt. While an extra seat might be useful a very small percentage of the time, a tall, spacious cargo area would be far more practical far more often.
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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 11:12:25 am »
Quote
By the end of the trip, after 882 km in total, we used 55.4 litres of fuel, for an overall trip average of 6.29 L/100 km


interesting...  many non-electric cars would have achieved or done better on this trip.
it goes to show this, for the moment is truly a city car.

however, with the range extender, you're at least not stuck to the city.

Offline pcsp

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 11:15:52 am »
As others have said, a crossover variant is far more important than cramming five seats into the Volt. While an extra seat might be useful a very small percentage of the time, a tall, spacious cargo area would be far more practical far more often.

An extra variant of the Volt may indeed be successful (a la Mini?), but it may also simply take a piece of what is currently a limited sized pie. Variants will work best when the model becomes so successful that the consumer is clamouring for more choices.

I believe that to change the Volt from a 4 seater to a typical compact-sized 5 seater would simply involve GM removing the very attractive console from between the back seats. For some people, including myself, having a vehicle that maxes out at 4 has advantages!

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 12:13:51 pm »
Quote
By the end of the trip, after 882 km in total, we used 55.4 litres of fuel, for an overall trip average of 6.29 L/100 km


interesting...  many non-electric cars would have achieved or done better on this trip.
it goes to show this, for the moment is truly a city car.

however, with the range extender, you're at least not stuck to the city.

At 120 to 130kph? I'm not so sure many others would be in the ballpark.
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Offline Noto

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 01:13:12 pm »
Quote
By the end of the trip, after 861 km in total, we used 53.9 litres of fuel, for an overall trip average of 6.25 L/100 km
interesting...  many non-electric cars would have achieved or done better on this trip.
it goes to show this, for the moment is truly a city car.
I also disagree.  At 120-130km/h with a bunch of adults in the car, most cars of this size would average ~about~ the same fuel economy, if not worse.  That's really not bad.

HOWEVER, the Volt uses premium fuel, making it 30%ish more expensive.

With that being said, if the long-distance jaunt is the 'occasional' (i.e. every other weekend) and it means that mid-week one could use zero gas during the commute, then the Volt's powertrain is most certainly at an advantage.  Maybe not as a pure long-distance highway cruiser, but certainly for those with the desire for vehicle flexibility (city, weekend warrior, etc).  Even if you use this for the weekend jaunt to the cottage, ~2hrs away in the Kawarthas, you'd get 50ish km 'free' and then the last 150km would only use ~9L of fuel.  $1.479*9 = $13.31 in fuel, vs a Corolla averaging the same 6L/100km but for 200km and at $1.309 = $15.71.  Volt for the win, especially if you get your electricity for free.

I really like the powertrain, and if a 3-cylinder can do the same job (i.e. as long as there's fuel, the car will drive) as the current 1.4L 4-banger, then all the better (and presumably more efficient).

I still hate the Volt as a whole vehicle - a variant (a la Equinox or Impala, but less sucky) would be VERY welcome.

Offline pcsp

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 01:29:06 pm »
Quote
By the end of the trip, after 861 km in total, we used 53.9 litres of fuel, for an overall trip average of 6.25 L/100 km
interesting...  many non-electric cars would have achieved or done better on this trip.
it goes to show this, for the moment is truly a city car.
I also disagree.  At 120-130km/h with a bunch of adults in the car, most cars of this size would average ~about~ the same fuel economy, if not worse.  That's really not bad.

HOWEVER, the Volt uses premium fuel, making it 30%ish more expensive.

With that being said, if the long-distance jaunt is the 'occasional' (i.e. every other weekend) and it means that mid-week one could use zero gas during the commute, then the Volt's powertrain is most certainly at an advantage.  Maybe not as a pure long-distance highway cruiser, but certainly for those with the desire for vehicle flexibility (city, weekend warrior, etc).  Even if you use this for the weekend jaunt to the cottage, ~2hrs away in the Kawarthas, you'd get 50ish km 'free' and then the last 150km would only use ~9L of fuel.  $1.479*9 = $13.31 in fuel, vs a Corolla averaging the same 6L/100km but for 200km and at $1.309 = $15.71.  Volt for the win, especially if you get your electricity for free.

I really like the powertrain, and if a 3-cylinder can do the same job (i.e. as long as there's fuel, the car will drive) as the current 1.4L 4-banger, then all the better (and presumably more efficient).

I still hate the Volt as a whole vehicle - a variant (a la Equinox or Impala, but less sucky) would be VERY welcome.

30%??!! About 12 cents extra in Ontario, 6 cents in NL, 3 cents extra at certain stations on Thursdays. Ethanol-free - WELL worth the extra 2-10% (IF the car requires it).

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 01:36:21 pm »
Quote
By the end of the trip, after 861 km in total, we used 53.9 litres of fuel, for an overall trip average of 6.25 L/100 km
interesting...  many non-electric cars would have achieved or done better on this trip.
it goes to show this, for the moment is truly a city car.
I also disagree.  At 120-130km/h with a bunch of adults in the car, most cars of this size would average ~about~ the same fuel economy, if not worse.  That's really not bad.

HOWEVER, the Volt uses premium fuel, making it 30%ish more expensive.

With that being said, if the long-distance jaunt is the 'occasional' (i.e. every other weekend) and it means that mid-week one could use zero gas during the commute, then the Volt's powertrain is most certainly at an advantage.  Maybe not as a pure long-distance highway cruiser, but certainly for those with the desire for vehicle flexibility (city, weekend warrior, etc).  Even if you use this for the weekend jaunt to the cottage, ~2hrs away in the Kawarthas, you'd get 50ish km 'free' and then the last 150km would only use ~9L of fuel.  $1.479*9 = $13.31 in fuel, vs a Corolla averaging the same 6L/100km but for 200km and at $1.309 = $15.71.  Volt for the win, especially if you get your electricity for free.

I really like the powertrain, and if a 3-cylinder can do the same job (i.e. as long as there's fuel, the car will drive) as the current 1.4L 4-banger, then all the better (and presumably more efficient).

I still hate the Volt as a whole vehicle - a variant (a la Equinox or Impala, but less sucky) would be VERY welcome.


so again...
"By the end of the trip, after 861 km in total, we used 53.9 litres of fuel, for an overall trip average of 6.25 L/100 km"

The Corolla was the first vehicle that comes to mind in coming close if not matching those fuel numbers for the same trip.     And it's what, half the price?

I was only speaking specifically for this scenario.

even at 120km/h I think it would come close to the Volt's numbers.


not bashing the Volt in any way, just saying on this specific "test", I don't think the Volt brings any value.
Now once the Ontario Gov gets their act together and puts charging station, it'll be a slightly different story.   But in the end, I don't think the Volt is really being used in this application anyways.

Offline Noto

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 03:15:09 pm »
30%??!! About 12 cents extra in Ontario, 6 cents in NL, 3 cents extra at certain stations on Thursdays. Ethanol-free - WELL worth the extra 2-10% (IF the car requires it).
You are correct - 13%, actually.  Premium is about 17-18 cents/L more expensive in the GTA.  Many stations here also include Ethanol in premium fuel - Husky, Esso, Ultra - f*ckers.  IIRC, Shell is the only one that universally keeps its premium E-free, and maybe PetroCan?

The Corolla was the first vehicle that comes to mind in coming close if not matching those fuel numbers for the same trip.     And it's what, half the price?
...
not bashing the Volt in any way, just saying on this specific "test", I don't think the Volt brings any value.
Now once the Ontario Gov gets their act together and puts charging station, it'll be a slightly different story.   But in the end, I don't think the Volt is really being used in this application anyways.
I wouldn't consider purchase price here - the Volt gets a hefty government discount 'round these parts and likely has a higher re-sale value.  Also, it is a far more premium vehicle (as far as interior furnishings are concerned, at least).

Remember that any time you argue for pure economics, you're going to get beef on this website.  I am not giving you beef, but saving you from the other heifers on this site ;D

Cruze would be the logical comparison, but as far as the powertrain is concerned, it's an electric vehicle that need not use any gas, but if you do need to, it's not limited to <110km (a la i3) and even if you're going a long distance, you get 50ish gas-free km!  That's 3L of fuel saved, assuming that electricity is cheaper than the cost of those 3L.

Offline blotter

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2014, 03:50:17 pm »
Quote
Remember that any time you argue for pure economics, you're going to get beef on this website.  I am not giving you beef, but saving you from the other heifers on this site ;D


aside from being green, isn't the idea for the Volt partly economic?
you're right the Volt is more premium vehicle than the Corolla and it's perhaps not a fair comparo.
however, options are limited.  You can have all types cross shopping to be green.

I'm guess my only point is that in it's application that you end up having to run the gas engine for extended periods, there are non-electric cars that can come close to competing in fuel consumption.
But like I said earlier, I can't see trips like this happening very often in this vehicle.


For us personally the Volt would fit nicely.   I'll soon have the big tow vehicle and my wife always has the city car.   She could replace the Fiat with this.  Her commute is about 40km round trip and the rest of our driving is city or within the region usually not over 50km.   We'll take her car to Toronto every now and again for a concert which is when the range extender comes in handy (120km trip on way)

Offline me_2

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2014, 09:22:39 pm »
What else would I say ...?
http://www.autos.ca/forum/index.php/topic,57366.msg1024356.html#msg1024356



picture is 10 days old by now, still counting e-km !
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 09:35:34 pm by me_2 »
Gone but not forgotten in chronological order: 2019 Volt, 2013 Volt, 2014 Spark EV, 2012 Volt and many others before...

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2014, 12:44:19 am »
I think it's pretty obvious that the Volt can't turn a profit, at least in Canada, and it's going to be yanked from the Canadian market.

Offline pcsp

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2014, 08:24:17 am »
The subsidies, while admirable in some ways, actually do more to hurt sales overall. I believe. My personal line of thought is: "if Newfoundland (and most other provinces) doesn't provide any subsidy to me as a Volt buyer, then why the hell would I pay over $8,000 more than my friends in central Canada, even if I could afford it?" Obviously, the country as a whole needs a focused policy in terms of the direction we are taking and consistency across the board. It must be federal, not provincial. If this can't be done, subsidies should be dropped - might actually help sales.

Offline Noto

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2014, 11:44:37 am »
I'm guess my only point is that in it's application that you end up having to run the gas engine for extended periods, there are non-electric cars that can come close to competing in fuel consumption.
You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.

"The Volt uses gas!"  vs  "The i3 doesn't have enough range!"

well, f*ck.

If ALL you do is highway driving, diesel is the cheapest option.  Get a Jetta TDI.

If ALL you do is short city driving, get a full BEV.

If you do all city or a decent mixture (>50% city), get a hybrid.  What kind of hybrid?  That depends on the proportion.  With that being said, a hybrid like the Volt GUARANTEES that you will never see consumption ABOVE ~6.5L/100km (on premium fuel).  With a Prius, driven hard you WILL see higher numbers.

In any event, take my situation:
-Daily commute: 26km round trip, ~1.17 hours on the road (35 mins each way).  There is a brief jaunt on the 401 (<4km).  There is a free L2 charging station at my gym (2 hrs parked each day) and my office also has free charging.  Gas here is currently at $1.289
-Weekends: either golfing (distance depends on which course we play), scuba diving, skiing in the winter, etc.  Can be anywhere from <30km if I don't leave the city, or >900km if I go to Ithaca and back to visit Lady Noto.  If I fill in the US, gas is $3.55 USD/Gal, diesel is $3.99 USD/Gal.

So, which car would be perfect for me?

The diesel would show no benefit over the ICE for the city driving I do mid-week.  The standard hybrid would be ok all-around, but the cost of entry would not likely show me direct savings (and sometimes in the RX400h, which is admittedly not a hybrid-first like the Prius, I get as low as 23 MPG (10.22L/100km)-in the winter, that'll drop to 18 MPG (13L/100km)).  A full electric would not fit my weekend needs.

The Volt's powertrain is the correct solution for me.  Same fuel efficiency as I'd get in the Corolla, but premium juice is cheap as d!ck in the US (only about $0.08 CAD/L more than regular).  Border waits wouldn't cost me dearly in idling.  I'd get to use the HOV lanes on the 403 (not that I ever get stuck on the 403 any way).  And weekdays would cost me $0 to operate it on the basis of the free chargers.

...so, for $31k, what's stopping me from getting a Volt?
1) A new Corolla is $19,750 for the one I'd want (LE CVT);
2) GM still has not reassured me that my previous issues with their cars and service centres won't resurface;
3) Hate the centre stack on the Volt;
4) Hate the exterior on the Volt;
5) Hate the faux black treatment under the windows on the Volt;
6) Prefer AWD;

That's why I say, time and time again, that the Voltec powertrain is the way of the future, but it needs to go into more vehicles.  Imagine free weekday commutes with guaranteed < 7L/100km weekend trips in an AWD CUV?  Not that I like the Equinox, but it'd make a hell of a lot more sense than a Cruze-based version.  It'd be the perfect 95% vehicle with sufficient cargo space, fuel economy, and all-weather capability.

...but it'd have to be no more than $3,000 more than an equivalent ICE Equinox, after gov't discounts are considered to be marketable.  I don't argue that that's even a remote possibility, but consumers don't care about business requirements or economies of scale - they care only about how much they pay and what value they get for it.

To Justify the $3,000 premium:
=> Even at my current burn rate in the Corolla, we drive about 15,000km/year and average, overall, about 7L/100km.  1,050L of fuel @$1.289 = $1,353.45.  So, assuming 0 fuel used and no cost for electricity (both of which are absurd assumptions), a $3,000 premium for the volt powertrain would still take me over 2 years to pay off.  Expect it to be more like 4-5 years if you factor in the cost of fuel that the voltec powertrain would use and the cost of electricity.

Again, before ya'll argue with me, this isn't a suggestion that GM sell a voltec Equinox for < $35k, but it does suggest HOW a consumer thinks about these type of cars.  Making the Volt 'premium' and separate from another vehicle (i.e. Volt does not resemble a Cruze) are good ideas to help command a higher price, but the vehicle must be compelling.

...that's why the Tesla Model S makes sense and sells, even at $70k to start:  It's a desirable vehicle in its entirety, not a sh!t vehicle with a desirable powertrain.  The ELR is priced too high for what it is because it is clearly based on the Volt, is underpowered (compared to the Tesla), and still uses gas at that price.

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2014, 12:58:45 pm »
With that being said, a hybrid like the Volt GUARANTEES that you will never see consumption ABOVE ~6.5L/100km (on premium fuel).  With a Prius, driven hard you WILL see higher numbers.

NONO, you are so out of your mind with these Toyota Hybrid numbers.

2012 loaded Camry Hybrid (brand new). 2 ppl, trunk loaded, 35 lb. curt hitch with rear under panel removed.  Owen Sound-Windsor-Kentucky-Nashville-Memphis-Nashville-Kentucky-Windsor-Owen Sound.  Reached 140 kph in Kentucky/Tennessee.   Upon arrival in Memphis ... 6.2 .  Upon arrival back home ... 6.1   Did not touch the mileage computer during the trip.

Last night:  Orangeville Tim's to Owen Sound driveway.  Cruise set to 102 kph.  5 small towns to get thru.  Traffic light/only 3 passes entire trip.  5.0

Please restrain from the Toyota hybrid postulating.   ;D

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2014, 01:25:59 pm »
I'm guess my only point is that in it's application that you end up having to run the gas engine for extended periods, there are non-electric cars that can come close to competing in fuel consumption.
You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.

"The Volt uses gas!"  vs  "The i3 doesn't have enough range!"

well, f*ck.

If ALL you do is highway driving, diesel is the cheapest option.  Get a Jetta TDI.

If ALL you do is short city driving, get a full BEV.

If you do all city or a decent mixture (>50% city), get a hybrid.  What kind of hybrid?  That depends on the proportion.  With that being said, a hybrid like the Volt GUARANTEES that you will never see consumption ABOVE ~6.5L/100km (on premium fuel).  With a Prius, driven hard you WILL see higher numbers.

In any event, take my situation:
-Daily commute: 26km round trip, ~1.17 hours on the road (35 mins each way).  There is a brief jaunt on the 401 (<4km).  There is a free L2 charging station at my gym (2 hrs parked each day) and my office also has free charging.  Gas here is currently at $1.289
-Weekends: either golfing (distance depends on which course we play), scuba diving, skiing in the winter, etc.  Can be anywhere from <30km if I don't leave the city, or >900km if I go to Ithaca and back to visit Lady Noto.  If I fill in the US, gas is $3.55 USD/Gal, diesel is $3.99 USD/Gal.

So, which car would be perfect for me?

The diesel would show no benefit over the ICE for the city driving I do mid-week.  The standard hybrid would be ok all-around, but the cost of entry would not likely show me direct savings (and sometimes in the RX400h, which is admittedly not a hybrid-first like the Prius, I get as low as 23 MPG (10.22L/100km)-in the winter, that'll drop to 18 MPG (13L/100km)).  A full electric would not fit my weekend needs.

The Volt's powertrain is the correct solution for me.  Same fuel efficiency as I'd get in the Corolla, but premium juice is cheap as d!ck in the US (only about $0.08 CAD/L more than regular).  Border waits wouldn't cost me dearly in idling.  I'd get to use the HOV lanes on the 403 (not that I ever get stuck on the 403 any way).  And weekdays would cost me $0 to operate it on the basis of the free chargers.

...so, for $31k, what's stopping me from getting a Volt?
1) A new Corolla is $19,750 for the one I'd want (LE CVT);
2) GM still has not reassured me that my previous issues with their cars and service centres won't resurface;
3) Hate the centre stack on the Volt;
4) Hate the exterior on the Volt;
5) Hate the faux black treatment under the windows on the Volt;
6) Prefer AWD;

That's why I say, time and time again, that the Voltec powertrain is the way of the future, but it needs to go into more vehicles.  Imagine free weekday commutes with guaranteed < 7L/100km weekend trips in an AWD CUV?  Not that I like the Equinox, but it'd make a hell of a lot more sense than a Cruze-based version.  It'd be the perfect 95% vehicle with sufficient cargo space, fuel economy, and all-weather capability.

...but it'd have to be no more than $3,000 more than an equivalent ICE Equinox, after gov't discounts are considered to be marketable.  I don't argue that that's even a remote possibility, but consumers don't care about business requirements or economies of scale - they care only about how much they pay and what value they get for it.

To Justify the $3,000 premium:
=> Even at my current burn rate in the Corolla, we drive about 15,000km/year and average, overall, about 7L/100km.  1,050L of fuel @$1.289 = $1,353.45.  So, assuming 0 fuel used and no cost for electricity (both of which are absurd assumptions), a $3,000 premium for the volt powertrain would still take me over 2 years to pay off.  Expect it to be more like 4-5 years if you factor in the cost of fuel that the voltec powertrain would use and the cost of electricity.

Again, before ya'll argue with me, this isn't a suggestion that GM sell a voltec Equinox for < $35k, but it does suggest HOW a consumer thinks about these type of cars.  Making the Volt 'premium' and separate from another vehicle (i.e. Volt does not resemble a Cruze) are good ideas to help command a higher price, but the vehicle must be compelling.

...that's why the Tesla Model S makes sense and sells, even at $70k to start:  It's a desirable vehicle in its entirety, not a sh!t vehicle with a desirable powertrain.  The ELR is priced too high for what it is because it is clearly based on the Volt, is underpowered (compared to the Tesla), and still uses gas at that price.

that's a lot of number crunching!   :thumbup:

Offline Writer_MichaelBettencourt

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2014, 01:58:48 pm »
I think it's pretty obvious that the Volt can't turn a profit, at least in Canada, and it's going to be yanked from the Canadian market.

Just received official confirmation from GM Canada that the next gen Volt WILL be sold in Canada. No word yet if it will be in every province, but they say the current Volt has been a success for them in Canada, and they plan to grow that success.

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2014, 02:03:57 pm »
For sure it will continue to sell in Quebec. I see many of them everyday. I see more Volts than the new Accord BTW..

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Re: State of Charge: Chevy Volt Road Trip Notes and 2016 Volt Rumours
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2014, 02:04:48 pm »
Since the majority of people have car payments, I believe the most appropriate way to calculate the pay back period is not to look at annual fuel savings and simply calculate the extended period when the higher purchase price is offset. Rather, look at the monthly car payment amount and add fuel to this figure. If, for example, an EV is lower, then the pay back period is immediate.

For example: Cruze LTZ ($27000), $435/month + 200 (fuel) = $635/month
                      Volt ($37000), $595/month + 30 (fuel = $625/month

Immediate payback in the above example. Everybody's example will be different due to gas prices, interest rates, electricity rates and charging availability, maintenance costs, mileage travelled, etc., but this method of calculation is good because it accounts for the all important factor in everyone's lives - cash flow.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 02:06:30 pm by pcsp »