Author Topic: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel  (Read 5524 times)

Offline johngenx

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Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« on: July 13, 2014, 10:33:46 pm »
We recently took a trip to Mt. Robson Park for some backpacking.  We took three cars, twelve people, and twelve backpacks.  The cars we took were:

1. 2009 Toyota Corolla - 1.8L 4AT
2. 2014 Toyota Corolla "Eco" 1.8L CVT
3. 2012 VW Jetta 2.0L TDI 6-DSG

We drove above the speed limit on the way out, cruising at 125-140km/h.  Al three vehicles were filled at the same station, and we were careful to remain together (same speed) but not drafting each other or other cars.  We used cruise control pretty much all the time.  (We drove at the 90km/h speed limit for the short stretch in Jasper National Park out of respect for the wildlife)

We tried to be careful to fill the cars to the same tank-full level when refueling to get as accurate as possible in measuring fuel economy.

On the return trip, we drove at the speed limit (90/100/110) and not above.

Some notes about the cars:  (we took turns driving all three)

The 2009 Corolla is smaller than the other two, but more than adequate for four adults and their gear.  We easily fit all four packs in the trunk and everyone was comfy for the trip.  The outside temps were high (30C-36C) and all the cars had the AC used liberally on the trip.  The 2014 Corolla feels more spacious inside, and the cabin is a nice step up in terms of modern design.  The VW looks a lot larger than ether Toyota, felt larger than the 09 inside, but didn't feel much more spacious than the 2014 Corolla.

The 2009 was noisiest inside mostly due to the tire noise from it's H-rated performance tires.  Wind noise on all three cars was very low, and all felt slippery moving along at highway speed.  The 2014 Corolla's steering is heavier than the 09's and requires a little less monitoring at speed.  Actually, the Jetta and the 2014 Corolla feel very similar in many ways.

The 2014 Corolla's CVT wasn't as refined feeling as the VW DSG, but did a wonderful job of keeping the engine in the torque sweet spot.  Using cruise control ascending grades with the CVT is one serious strength of the transmission.  The DSG's 6 ratios were good, and the old-school 4AT of the 2009 shifted butter-smooth (no jarring at kickdown at all) but did have to hunt a little bit on variable grades.  The CVT had a teeny bit more NVH than the DSG, but overall did the best job of all three transmissions.  The TDI's huge torque advantage is mostly negated by the CVT's ability to perfectly match engine speed to road speed.

The 2014 Corolla is noticeably zippier than the 2009 in the corners despite the "Eco" trim level riding on low resistance tires.  This is slightly offset by the 09's performance rubber, but the 2014 corners flatter and scrubs a little less.  The steering is more precise.  The VW is quite soft, and tuned for comfort and ride quality ahead of handling.  It felt closer to the 09 Corolla is terms of desire to tackle the twisty bits, with the 2014 Corolla surprisingly ahead of the others.  I had expected more precision from the VW.  It felt very "set up for the US market" to me.

As for cabins, the VW still ranks ahead of the 2014 Corolla, but Toyota has made serious head-way in terms of adding more style and nicer materials.  The price difference between the 2014 Corolla would lead one to expect some differences, but the Corolla comes out looking great when price is even mentioned.

Now, what everyone is waiting for:  the fuel consumption results.

The 2009 Corolla is a miser, but it's in the company of the misers of misers.  We recorded 6.4L/100km on the higher-speed run going out, which is excellent considering the speeds, the full load, and the ambient temperature.  But, the 2014 Eco earns the Eco badge with consuming just 5.3L/100km in the same distance.  The VW pretty much precisely matched the Eco with a 5.3 as well.  Outstanding economy considering the conditions and road speeds.

On the return trip, the 2009 showed serious improvement, dropping consumption to a respectable 5.4L/100km.  Not as miserly as I've seen in the car, but slightly beating the TC ratings despite the always on AC and full load.  The Eco handily went into the 4's, recording an outstanding 4.5L/100km.  The VW went a teeny bit better at 4.4L/100km.

There might be some thought that the Gen 11 Corolla and Jetta aren't competitors.  But, I think they really are.  The Jetta is a bit larger, but the Toyota feels spacious inside and easily meets the needs of most small families.  One major benefit of the TDI is fuel economy, but one the highway (I can't speak to the city driving) the Corolla matches the TDI pretty much exactly.  The latest Corolla offers a more enthusiastic driving experience then the previous Corolla and the Jetta is tuned for a wonderfully comfortable drive, making it almost a wash in terms of "driving enjoyment."  In terms of refinement, the Jetta is better, showing the price gap.  But, the Corolla is a lot closer in many ways than it was.  Of course, the price gap between the 2014 Corolla and the TDI is smaller than it was between the 09 and the TDI when we bought our car, so that alone should account for some of the difference.

The CVT vs DSG debate could take up volumes.  The CVT is terrific for small engines, allowing the engine to operate at the torque peak as much as you need. The DSG has better NVH, but lacks the "away from the light electric car feel" of the CVT.

The old 4AT shifts smoothly and works well, but is outclassed by the newer transmissions.  The feature that it brings to the table is that it's a known quantity, lasting nearly forever.

Offline Snowman

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2014, 10:56:01 pm »
Great real wold review John... :thumbup: :thumbup:

Offline wing

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2014, 10:59:22 pm »
Sounds like the Diesel has no advantage in a small car.

Offline Snowman

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2014, 11:11:28 pm »
Sounds like the Diesel has no advantage in a small car.

There never was. The only reason diesel has an advantage in Europe was taxation and that is changing.

Offline Bubba

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2014, 11:32:47 pm »
Good review!  I'm still not sold on the looks on the 2014 Corolla.
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Offline quadzilla

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 07:06:00 am »
Great review :thumbup:

Now only if Toyota would bring over their Corolla wagon (Auris-Touring).

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 10:24:33 am »
Very interesting and kind of surprising read. Thanks John. :thumbup:
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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 11:44:18 am »
Nice review. Most notable comment for me, "more than adequate for four adults and their gear". That is in reference to the smaller '09 Corolla. Reminds me that modern cars, CUVs and trucks have become so incredibly and unnecessarily larger than needed. I'm guilty of buying big vehicles...but just saying.

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2014, 12:55:41 pm »
i always find it humorous when potential diesel buyers look at the jetta because they drive so many kms that the fuel savings will add up.... but if they drive huge kms, it is most likely hwy, where the diesel is a small (if any) improvement... for those buyers the longevity of the engine is the only selling point.

anywho, interesting comparo john... way to make a boring drive a bit more entertaining!
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Offline tortoise

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 01:23:54 pm »
?

Isn't the highway where the diesel shines?
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Offline tooscoops

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2014, 02:03:26 pm »
is it?... that's what i'm trying to figure out!!

maybe at real hwy speeds, but not the energguide hwy? i have no clue... you'd think i know. according to this drive of johns, there was no improvement gas to diesel...

Offline lebowski

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2014, 02:05:35 pm »
Great review, John!

Offline johngenx

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Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2014, 03:17:42 pm »
My friends with the 14 Corolla report mid to high 6s in city driving, better than the mid to high 7s we see in our Corolla. Of course there's no comparing thanks to driving conditions, routes, etc. But my direct observation is that under identical driving the 14 is more efficient than the 09. There's certainly no reason to trade in the 09 on a 14 as the alight fuel savings would take lifetimes to pay off the cost of buying a new car. Were we buying today is have a tough time between the Corolla and the Prius C. The Prius has better in town economy but is smaller and less practical. The trunk of the Corolla is quite generous.

I'm a diesel slappie, but I think there's little advantage in this class of car. Where the diesels can win big time is in larger vehicles. The FJ would have been awesome with an oil burner. Same for the Wrangler. A diesel Taco would be something is probably really want. 


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Offline wing

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2014, 03:21:25 pm »
The diesel in the small cars use to matter, but with cars getting so efficient now with CVT and direct injection the advantage is gone.

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2014, 03:42:24 pm »
Interesting twist on small car diesels emerging here. I'm sure the revolt will be countered shortly...

Offline johngenx

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 05:08:04 pm »
The '09-'13 Corolla would appear to be the value purchase.  Marginally inferior fuel economy but lower price and simpler technology (with the 4AT).

When we bought the 09, the previous generation were not used buys, not at all.  That was mostly thanks to Toyota dropping the price of the 09's when introduced, which was not reflected in the used 05-08 market at all.

Today, the 09/10 Corolla is "old" (ours is 6.5yrs old) and I believe they're actually good buys despite the higher prices than some other brands.  Our car has been completely bulletproof, feels like new, and I'm sure will give us many, many years of trouble free motoring yet.  The Gen 10 (09-13) cars came with quite a few safety upgrades over the Gen 9 (side bags, curtain bags, standard ABS, etc, etc) and so I feel that they're more desirable than the 03-08 cars.

I wasn't the slightest bit disappointed when Toyota kept the older 4AT for the 09-13 cars.  In the case of many new cars, transmissions are the weak point, and having a tried and true unit suited me just fine.

Offline Julie

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 08:49:46 pm »
Very interesting comparison. Looks like you guys made a real effort to be able to compare them objectively.

Last time I test drove a 'Rolla was back in '06, and I knew the transmission was 'old', even then, but I still liked it! I liked that it was old but trusty.

I still have a soft side for them 'Rolla's... I really liked the interior of the new one at this year's auto show. Glad to hear it's improved its handling and steering.

Offline phazotron

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 10:25:35 pm »
Thank you, that was an excellent read!  Got any more comparos up your sleeve?

Offline rrocket

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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2014, 10:34:44 pm »
Excellent report.

Add in maintenance, reliability and cheaper purchase price and the Corolla is a no brainer IMO...
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Re: Gas vs Gas vs Diesel
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2014, 12:01:58 pm »
awesome review and great read!

I too was a little surprised with:
The 2009 Corolla is smaller than the other two, but more than adequate for four adults and their gear.

while our 2011 Matrix is adequate in size for 4 adults and our gear biking, or just the two of us and loaded with camping gear and the bikes, I do find the 1.8L really struggles up the hills.