Topic: Preview: 2015 BMW X4

[Fobroader]

I'm sure it's a decent piece of machinery when considered in a vacuum, but hard to make a strong case for it when you consider the alternatives.

this is where I think you have it backwards. I don't think it is necessarily considered in a list of pros and cons of one vehicle vs another. Somebody might just show up at the BMW dealership, see it all shiny and sparkling and be like, "That's the one I want (daddy)." or see it at the mall or downtown or somewhere.

I absolutely agree there are better, more practical solution that can do everything this does and more, and better, but not every car has to be designed by that measure - is a coupe better than a sedan if judged by a list of requirements or capabilities that it needs of fulfill? I guess they should just stop building coupes...

You're right.  My argument hinges on the, admittedly, subjective view that the X6 does not look better than the X5.   

Obviously any car purchase can be justified for the simple reason of "that's the one I want".  And often that "want" is driven by style.  I just have a really hard time understanding what these people see in the X6 over the X5.  Clearly they prefer the styling, but man....it's hard to see from my perspective.  Otherwise the X5 does everything the same or better.  (which I realize no one is arguing...)

This is definitely one of those cars simply bought on emotion, a styling exercise that some bought into. This, the Aztek and PT Cruiser were bought by the "gotta have it no matter if there are a lot of better choices" mentality.  Nothing wrong with that at all, there is no logical reason for buying a 458 Italia or a Maserati Type 61 either.....

[jyarkony]

I'm sure it's a decent piece of machinery when considered in a vacuum, but hard to make a strong case for it when you consider the alternatives.

this is where I think you have it backwards. I don't think it is necessarily considered in a list of pros and cons of one vehicle vs another. Somebody might just show up at the BMW dealership, see it all shiny and sparkling and be like, "That's the one I want (daddy)." or see it at the mall or downtown or somewhere.

I absolutely agree there are better, more practical solution that can do everything this does and more, and better, but not every car has to be designed by that measure - is a coupe better than a sedan if judged by a list of requirements or capabilities that it needs of fulfill? I guess they should just stop building coupes...

You're right.  My argument hinges on the, admittedly, subjective view that the X6 does not look better than the X5.   

Obviously any car purchase can be justified for the simple reason of "that's the one I want".  And often that "want" is driven by style.  I just have a really hard time understanding what these people see in the X6 over the X5.  Clearly they prefer the styling, but man....it's hard to see from my perspective.  Otherwise the X5 does everything the same or better.  (which I realize no one is arguing...)

I feel the same way about the Juke.

[OliverD]

The X6 hasn't been worth the funds required to have it federalized in NA, let alone the R&D costs. I doubt this will fare any better.

Yet they are bringing us a second generation model, so you're clearly wrong.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. VW loses millions on each Bugatti sold, other examples are listed below. Some cars end up being vanity exercises for their proponents within the company and hang on long after they should have been culled.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/09/daily-chart-18?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/tr/zoomsputteraagghhh

The only vehicle that is anywhere close to the BMW X6 in price on that list is the VW Phaeton, which instead of sharing its platform with a cheaper vehicle shares it with one that is at least 2-3x more expensive and is manufactured in a glass factory with wood flooring instead of in South Carolina. Aside from the Veyron, all of the other cars are significantly cheaper and thus would be expected to have smaller margins to begin with.

[jyarkony]

I'm sure it's a decent piece of machinery when considered in a vacuum, but hard to make a strong case for it when you consider the alternatives.

this is where I think you have it backwards. I don't think it is necessarily considered in a list of pros and cons of one vehicle vs another. Somebody might just show up at the BMW dealership, see it all shiny and sparkling and be like, "That's the one I want (daddy)." or see it at the mall or downtown or somewhere.

I absolutely agree there are better, more practical solution that can do everything this does and more, and better, but not every car has to be designed by that measure - is a coupe better than a sedan if judged by a list of requirements or capabilities that it needs of fulfill? I guess they should just stop building coupes...

You're right.  My argument hinges on the, admittedly, subjective view that the X6 does not look better than the X5.   

Obviously any car purchase can be justified for the simple reason of "that's the one I want".  And often that "want" is driven by style.  I just have a really hard time understanding what these people see in the X6 over the X5.  Clearly they prefer the styling, but man....it's hard to see from my perspective.  Otherwise the X5 does everything the same or better.  (which I realize no one is arguing...)

This is definitely one of those cars simply bought on emotion, a styling exercise that some bought into. This, the Aztek and PT Cruiser were bought by the "gotta have it no matter if there are a lot of better choices" mentality.  Nothing wrong with that at all, there is no logical reason for buying a 458 Italia or a Maserati Type 61 either.....

I've never actually been inside an Aztek, but weren't they incredibly practical? essentially the opposite of a SAC (i do love that acronyn i must say...). so people bought it because it was so useful and nothing could replicate its, um, tent...

and the P(iece of sh!)T Cruiser sold for the price of subcompacts, so they were bargains, but Chrysler made the money back by selling them for like, 10 years, at which point all the development/tooling costs were well recovered (Mitsu's doing the same thing with the Lancer - it's all gravy now). but yes, there were definitely better choices than the PT Cruiser, especially the horrid turbo models. but yeah, people bought the PT because it was trendy at the time - it was crap, but it did sell like crazy for a while... the ZDX was a bit like the sad HHR that came way too late to the retro cheap-o wagon segment. i kinda like the HHR, though. poor thing.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

The X6 hasn't been worth the funds required to have it federalized in NA, let alone the R&D costs. I doubt this will fare any better.

Yet they are bringing us a second generation model, so you're clearly wrong.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. VW loses millions on each Bugatti sold, other examples are listed below. Some cars end up being vanity exercises for their proponents within the company and hang on long after they should have been culled.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/09/daily-chart-18?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/tr/zoomsputteraagghhh

The only vehicle that is anywhere close to the BMW X6 in price on that list is the VW Phaeton, which instead of sharing its platform with a cheaper vehicle shares it with one that is at least 2-3x more expensive and is manufactured in a glass factory with wood flooring instead of in South Carolina. Aside from the Veyron, all of the other cars are significantly cheaper and thus would be expected to have smaller margins to begin with.

They also sold in higher volumes. I still doubt that the X6 brings in money for BMW. Certainly not as much as simply offering a few more versions of the X5.

[mmret]

it's a vehicle you buy in order to say, "I don't need a minivan or to save money, I can do whatever I want!'m a douche and want to make sure everyone knows it!"

Fixed! 

..... small purses and dogs. ....

[OliverD]

They also sold in higher volumes. I still doubt that the X6 brings in money for BMW. Certainly not as much as simply offering a few more versions of the X5.

From Car and Driver

The current X6 is no sales juggernaut—it has been outsold in the U.S. this year by every single BMW model save for the Z4—but it does yield larger-than-normal profit margins from relatively low engineering investment.

From CarScoops:

One of the unnamed sources said the business case for the MLC is simple: the BMW X6 proved that there is demand for such a vehicle, engineering work and costs are low, and the profit margins will be high. Furthermore, this type of crossover can appeal to customers in all major markets, including the U.S., Europe, Russia and China.

Everything I've ever read about the X6 indicates that the cost to develop it low and that leads to high profit margins. Funny how no one ever questions the profitability of the Z4 though.

[mmret]

One has to wonder where exactly those numbers in the Economist article (or Bernstein report?) came from. There's a fair bit of nuance to where these things are. Example how do you allocate costs for N55 development? For chassis development? iDrive R&D? Assembly Line construction? etc. So many shared components.

Then again mainstream media is no stranger to torturing statistics to tell a good story.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

They also sold in higher volumes. I still doubt that the X6 brings in money for BMW. Certainly not as much as simply offering a few more versions of the X5.

From Car and Driver

The current X6 is no sales juggernaut—it has been outsold in the U.S. this year by every single BMW model save for the Z4—but it does yield larger-than-normal profit margins from relatively low engineering investment.

From CarScoops:

One of the unnamed sources said the business case for the MLC is simple: the BMW X6 proved that there is demand for such a vehicle, engineering work and costs are low, and the profit margins will be high. Furthermore, this type of crossover can appeal to customers in all major markets, including the U.S., Europe, Russia and China.

Everything I've ever read about the X6 indicates that the cost to develop it low and that leads to high profit margins. Funny how no one ever questions the profitability of the Z4 though.

It could have higher profit margins, but that doesn't mean that it's covered the federalization costs let alone the money to develop it.

It's the second worst selling SUV in the land of SUVs, now that Acura has killed off their equally stupid ZDX. BMW should have skipped it and offered a couple more variants of the popular X5.

The bigger deal for me is that BMW brought out such a crappy looking and impractical car in the first place. Someone in product development needs a face punch.

[OliverD]

Are you trolling me? You're being ridiculous.

It could have higher profit margins, but that doesn't mean that it's covered the federalization costs let alone the money to develop it.

So they don't take federalization and development costs into account when they measure profit margins?

It's the second worst selling SUV in the land of SUVs, now that Acura has killed off their equally stupid ZDX. BMW should have skipped it and offered a couple more variants of the popular X5.

No, it isn't. Not even close. In the month of March the X6 outsold 15 other SUVs in Canada, and 9 in the United States.

The bigger deal for me is that BMW brought out such a crappy looking and impractical car in the first place. Someone in product development needs a face punch.

Yes, god forbid they come up with a product that consistently sells 40k units a year and despite your objections clearly adds to the bottom line. And who cares if you don't like the looks. There's plenty of vehicles whose looks I don't care for and I don't make up a bunch of BS to try to justify why they shouldn't have been developed in the first place.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Are you trolling me? You're being ridiculous.

It could have higher profit margins, but that doesn't mean that it's covered the federalization costs let alone the money to develop it.

So they don't take federalization and development costs into account when they measure profit margins?

It's the second worst selling SUV in the land of SUVs, now that Acura has killed off their equally stupid ZDX. BMW should have skipped it and offered a couple more variants of the popular X5.

No, it isn't. Not even close. In the month of March the X6 outsold 15 other SUVs in Canada, and 9 in the United States.

The bigger deal for me is that BMW brought out such a crappy looking and impractical car in the first place. Someone in product development needs a face punch.

Yes, god forbid they come up with a product that consistently sells 40k units a year and despite your objections clearly adds to the bottom line. And who cares if you don't like the looks. There's plenty of vehicles whose looks I don't care for and I don't make up a bunch of BS to try to justify why they shouldn't have been developed in the first place.

Net versus gross margin.

The table quite clearly stated midsize luxury SUVs, perhaps I should have been more explicit. Six of the ones that sold worse are discontinued models, so 3 SUVs sold worse than the X6 out of the 89 SUVs currently sold in SUV crazy America.

I'm being ridiculous? Possibly. But when a car manufacturer that has carefully developed a sterling reputation for sports sedans over decades, decides to build a huge fat, yet cramped monstrosity, that also turns out to be a sales dud, I think they should be called out on it.

[JacobBlack]

The profile of a BMW X4 reminds me of when my daughter draws vague car-like shapes on the board. It's recognisable, but it's just off.

Is the car good? More than likely, yes. Do I like how it looks? Heck no.

Still there are uglier things in the world. You should see the bloke in my mirror.

[Northernridge]

That's how I see it. Don't care if the X4 and X6 sell well or are profitable. They are ugly and off-concept for BMW. I want them to go away in the same way I wanted the R Class to go away for Mercedes.

[ChaosphereIX]

you all know I hate the idea of sporty SUVs. These coupe things are the worst offenders. Yes I want an ugly styling statement, an ashphalt-bound off roader, a tall and heavy sports car, and an SUV with no cargo room and cannot haul.

DEAR ODIN KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Seriously, I don't care how profitable they are. They are still one of the worst ideas in the history of the automobile. A vehicle made of of only magical marketing pixie dust, with no substance or true function.

All that is wrong with the car industry can be summarized in these vehicles.

To the German manufacturers: sometimes a segment doesn't exist in the car industry for a reason. STOP.

there I said my rant you all knew was coming.

[jyarkony]

you all know I hate the idea of sporty SUVs. These coupe things are the worst offenders. Yes I want an ugly styling statement, an ashphalt-bound off roader, a tall and heavy sports car, and an SUV with no cargo room and cannot haul.

DEAR ODIN KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Seriously, I don't care how profitable they are. They are still one of the worst ideas in the history of the automobile. A vehicle made of of only magical marketing pixie dust, with no substance or true function.

All that is wrong with the car industry can be summarized in these vehicles.

To the German manufacturers: sometimes a segment doesn't exist in the car industry for a reason. STOP.

there I said my rant you all knew was coming.

No, please don't restrain yourself... Tell us how you really feel.

[mmret]

That's how I see it. Don't care if the X4 and X6 sell well or are profitable. They are ugly and off-concept for BMW. I want them to go away in the same way I wanted the R Class to go away for Mercedes.

I thought the R-Class was alright, actually. It had better space efficiency than an ML/GL didn't it? A sort of Mercedes van.

I guess there's always the Sprinter.

[midnightsun]

Looks like a modern version of the AMC Eagle.  Just slightly more polished. 
 

[Fobroader]

Looks like a modern version of the AMC Eagle.  Just slightly more polished. 
 

Oy....dont you dare compare this Teutonic POS to that great Eagle.   

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Looks like a modern version of the AMC Eagle.  Just slightly more polished. 
 

Oy....dont you dare compare this Teutonic POS to that great Eagle.   

  AMC was way ahead of the curve, they just lacked the money to develop it properly.

[jyarkony]

Looks like a modern version of the AMC Eagle.  Just slightly more polished. 
 

Oy....dont you dare compare this Teutonic POS to that great Eagle.   

  AMC was way ahead of the curve, they just lacked the money to develop it properly.

So why was it okay for AMC, but not for BMW? 

BMW has the resources, and you better believe this would be infinitely better than the Eagle ever was.