Topic: First Drive: 2013 Toyota RAV4

[ArticSteve]

The speculation about a future Rav4 hybrid is interesting.  Ford's new Escape just dropped the hybrid version, and Ford seems adamant that there will not be another Escape Hybrid.  Backing that up are numbers showing the hybrid version was only a few percent of sales.  Like 3% in 2009.

It's not speculation.  Toyota Motor made the announcement some 6 months ago.  The Venza and the Rav are the next up.  It just remains to be seen what kind of power setup the Rav will receive.  If it is the 2.5 Hybrid version it will be silly fast.

[OliverD]

I am a Subaru loyalist.  I am biased.  Toyota is a part-stake owner of Subaru.  It seems like there's a lot of part sharing with the new Forester (i.e. memory height rear hatch, close cargo capacities, base engine power, etc).

Uh...that is not "part sharing".

[Noto]

To some, this may sound like blasphemy, but for once I'd consider a FWD Forester.

That is. 

AWD isn't only good for snow, and not all AWDs are made the same!  There are countless videos on Youtube showing that Subaru's excellently balanced chassis handles emergency maneuvers better.  AWD sells in many cars for performance reasons, safety, and yes, snow capabilities.  Do you need it?  No...but why would you look for a car built around its AWD platform in FWD configuration?  Besides, the fuel penalty for AWD is no longer a valid concern - NA 2014 Forester gets better fuel economy with the CVT than 2013 Rav4 in FWD.   

[Noto]

I am a Subaru loyalist.  I am biased.  Toyota is a part-stake owner of Subaru.  It seems like there's a lot of part sharing with the new Forester (i.e. memory height rear hatch, close cargo capacities, base engine power, etc).

Uh...that is not "part sharing".

True enough - fixed.  My intent was more towards "competitive similarities"

[Fobroader]

^^ Never said it was only good for snow, for control in all emergency maneuvers an AWD would be great to have.

[whaddaiknow]

The speculation about a future Rav4 hybrid is interesting.  Ford's new Escape just dropped the hybrid version, and Ford seems adamant that there will not be another Escape Hybrid.  Backing that up are numbers showing the hybrid version was only a few percent of sales.  Like 3% in 2009.

It's not speculation.  Toyota Motor made the announcement some 6 months ago.  The Venza and the Rav are the next up.  It just remains to be seen what kind of power setup the Rav will receive.  If it is the 2.5 Hybrid version it will be silly fast.

I remember reading sometime ago that Toyota wanted to have a hybrid version across the entire model lineup. If they can fit the electric motor alongside that 2.5l 4, it would be fast, fuel efficient and would sell well knowing the same powertrain is offered in a Lexus model. There wouldn't be a need for the V6 at all - similar power with killer fuel efficiency - two birds with one stone.

[johngenx]

AWD is superior for traction regardless of road conditions...

Summer traction:

AWD>RWD>FWD

Summer fun:

RWD>AWD>FWD

Winter traction:

AWD>RWD=FWD

Winter fun:

AWD>RWD>FWD

FWD seems to finish last a lot...

To be fair...

Minimizing manufacturing costs...

FWD>RWD>AWD

[Fobroader]

AWD is superior for traction regardless of road conditions...

Summer traction:

AWD>RWD>FWD

Summer fun:

RWD>AWD>FWD

Winter traction:

AWD>RWD=FWD

Winter fun:

AWD>RWD>FWD

FWD seems to finish last a lot...

To be fair...

Minimizing manufacturing costs...

FWD>RWD>AWD

Well, honestly I cant think of a situation that FWD would be better than AWD. For summer fun though, you cant beat a RWD.

[PJ]

AWD is superior for traction regardless of road conditions...

Summer traction:

AWD>RWD>FWD

Summer fun:

RWD>AWD>FWD

Winter traction:

AWD>RWD=FWD

Winter fun:

AWD>RWD>FWD

FWD seems to finish last a lot...

To be fair...

Minimizing manufacturing costs...

FWD>RWD>AWD

One correction.  RWD is NOT equal to FWD when it comes to winter traction.  You need winter tires and traction control on RWD to try to match a FWD with a set of cheap all seasons.

FWD also is superior in interior space and can be a lot of fun in the snow if you have a handbrake and know how to drive it.

[Mike]

The speculation about a future Rav4 hybrid is interesting.  Ford's new Escape just dropped the hybrid version, and Ford seems adamant that there will not be another Escape Hybrid.  Backing that up are numbers showing the hybrid version was only a few percent of sales.  Like 3% in 2009.

It's not speculation.  Toyota Motor made the announcement some 6 months ago.  The Venza and the Rav are the next up.  It just remains to be seen what kind of power setup the Rav will receive.  If it is the 2.5 Hybrid version it will be silly fast.

They alluded the hybrid would be the upgrade motor to replace the v6.  I would guess it will be the 2.5

[Fobroader]

AWD is superior for traction regardless of road conditions...

Summer traction:

AWD>RWD>FWD

Summer fun:

RWD>AWD>FWD

Winter traction:

AWD>RWD=FWD

Winter fun:

AWD>RWD>FWD

FWD seems to finish last a lot...

To be fair...

Minimizing manufacturing costs...

FWD>RWD>AWD

One correction.  RWD is NOT equal to FWD when it comes to winter traction.  You need winter tires and traction control on RWD to try to match a FWD with a set of cheap all seasons.

FWD also is superior in interior space and can be a lot of fun in the snow if you have a handbrake and know how to drive it.

Yeah, a handbrake can make it a little more fun, but you can maintain a drift and hoon a lot better with a RWD or AWD. As for traction, I wouldnt take a FWD or RWD without snow tires.

[ArticSteve]

It will be fast then and it should sell like hot cakes.  Can't see it available in AWD though.  Seems a bit much to install another motor on the rear axle in a RAV.  But you never know what engineering scheme Toyota has up their sleeve in the hybrid area.

Just a fun fact  ;   Prius was the top selling vehicle in California (2012).  A Toyota accounted for a little more than 1 out of every 5 vehicles sold (2012).

[X-Traction]

It will be fast then and it should sell like hot cakes.  Can't see it available in AWD though.  Seems a bit much to install another motor on the rear axle in a RAV.  But you never know what engineering scheme Toyota has up their sleeve in the hybrid area.

Although that's the way the Highlander Hybrid does it, the Escape Hybrid had a driveshaft to the rear end, not a third electric motor back there. While the Escape system was heavier, it did not suffer from overheating the third motor and reverting to fwd like the Highlander.

[X-Traction]

One correction.  RWD is NOT equal to FWD when it comes to winter traction.  You need winter tires and traction control on RWD to try to match a FWD with a set of cheap all seasons.

FWD also is superior in interior space and can be a lot of fun in the snow if you have a handbrake and know how to drive it.

Just try going up, or stopping and and starting again, on a steep uphill on snow or loose gravel.  The fwd shifts weight off the driving wheels as the grade steepens and the load increases, and when starting from a stop.  I'd guess that rwd traction benefits more from even weight distribution on the two driving wheels, and lower from torque forces.  No doubt fwd is better than rwd in some situations, but certainly not in some very important ones.  And as has been said, fwd cars are cheaper to make and are lighter and so get better mileage for same size car.

[Snowman]

One correction.  RWD is NOT equal to FWD when it comes to winter traction.  You need winter tires and traction control on RWD to try to match a FWD with a set of cheap all seasons.

FWD also is superior in interior space and can be a lot of fun in the snow if you have a handbrake and know how to drive it.

Just try going up, or stopping and and starting again, on a steep uphill on snow or loose gravel.  The fwd shifts weight off the driving wheels as the grade steepens and the load increases, and when starting from a stop.  I'd guess that rwd traction benefits more from even weight distribution on the two driving wheels, and lower from torque forces.  No doubt fwd is better than rwd in some situations, but certainly not in some very important ones.  And as has been said, fwd cars are cheaper to make and are lighter and so get better mileage for same size car.

  I had to back up many inclines in reverse with a FWD car when experiencing slippery conditions.

[PJungnitsch]

One correction.  RWD is NOT equal to FWD when it comes to winter traction.  You need winter tires and traction control on RWD to try to match a FWD with a set of cheap all seasons.

Yes, exactly. I grew up with RWD and have pretty much driven them ever since and they suck in winter. They always did. We were amazed what the first FWD vehicles could go through when they came out, a buddy summed them up as 'a poor mans 4X4'.

To be fair, I think it's  more a matter of where the weight is than which wheels are driven. The big traction advantage of FWD is that engine block over the drive wheels.

[PJ]

One correction.  RWD is NOT equal to FWD when it comes to winter traction.  You need winter tires and traction control on RWD to try to match a FWD with a set of cheap all seasons.

FWD also is superior in interior space and can be a lot of fun in the snow if you have a handbrake and know how to drive it.

Just try going up, or stopping and and starting again, on a steep uphill on snow or loose gravel.  The fwd shifts weight off the driving wheels as the grade steepens and the load increases, and when starting from a stop.  I'd guess that rwd traction benefits more from even weight distribution on the two driving wheels, and lower from torque forces.  No doubt fwd is better than rwd in some situations, but certainly not in some very important ones.  And as has been said, fwd cars are cheaper to make and are lighter and so get better mileage for same size car.

If it's steep enough for the weight to shift and stop a FWD then a RWD will just spin it's tires too.  For almost everything but high performance driving FWD is better then RWD... it's just not cool to say so.

[S. Aureus]

In majority of driving situations, FWD is far more idiot-proof than either AWD or RWD.

A proper AWD drives waaay better than other drivetrains though 

[Fobroader]

In majority of driving situations, FWD is far more idiot-proof than either AWD or RWD.

A proper AWD drives waaay better than other drivetrains though 

I call BS on that, if you lose the rear end of a FWD you are really screwed unless you really know what youre doing. AN AWD is much easier to catch and a rwd is much more predictable.

[Snowman]

In majority of driving situations, FWD is far more idiot-proof than either AWD or RWD.

A proper AWD drives waaay better than other drivetrains though 

FWD cars inherently understeer which causes the driver to naturally back off.