Topic: Comparison Test: AWD vs FWD Family Sedans on Ice

[ipolski]

I remember Car and Driver having a "proper" FWD vs AWD test a while back: FWD Audi A4 vs AWD Audi A4, tests done with all season and winter tires.  IIRC the conclusion was that AWD would accelerate better (surprise, surprise) and FWD would brake better (less weight) and cornering was very close - again, 4 wheel traction on one end and less weight on other.  The differences were more pronounced with all seasons and much less so with winter tires. 


In my view, for everyday driving, changing tires from all season to winters (as I do on all my vehicles) is more important than adding AWD. At least to a FWD car, RWD is a different story .

[ipolski]

Real men don't need anything but RWD and bald pigskins on the back in winter!

(disclaimer: I have a forester) 

hehe, every trip is an adventure 

[jekelly]

1st: Mike, why didn't you call me, it's a dream to be there!

2nd: The Legacy as a dull look, poor equipement package and is having a higher interest rate than it's competitor. So at the end your paying a lot more than the other cars for equal equipments. It will always be a niche product.

[Ace]

Repeat after me:
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis,
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis,
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis....

The article highlights two main differences: powertrain and chasis; each are distinct and different. The braking and handling differences between the Legacy and the respective competitor Accord and Camry was due to the differences in weight distribution. This was most evident when they compared the Legacy 2.5 vs the Legacy 3.6 (with the same awd system of course).

After reading the reply comments I'm thinking the article is mis-titled: should've called it "The Benefits of Equal Weight Distribution" - to me that was the big showcase of the comparison.

I dunno,I'd still bet the Legacy with full time AWD would out steer and out brake the RWD BRZ(argueably the best balanced chasis ever) on the white cold stuff because of engine braking.

[Fobroader]

1st: Mike, why didn't you call me, it's a dream to be there!

2nd: The Legacy as a dull look, poor equipement package and is having a higher interest rate than it's competitor. So at the end your paying a lot more than the other cars for equal equipments. It will always be a niche product.

Yes, but the Legacy gives you AWD and a boxer engine, right there, the Camry and Accord cant even touch it.

[X-Traction]

It's about time someone did this sort of a demonstration and article.

Every time Awd vs fwd comes up, someone claims that fwd with winter tires is as good as awd.  Of course, they never mention that they mean awd without winter tires.  How anyone can claim that fwd with snow tires can perform as well as awd with snow tires remains a mystery.

Then they fall back on the agrument that drivers of awd vehicles  fall into a trap of driving too fast.  Do they make the same argument about people buying cars with larger optional engines having more accidents because they can go faster?  Or quieter smoother cars seeming to be going slower?  Do they make the same argument about all sorts of car improvements since the Model T?  Why do they raise this issue only with the awd vs 2wd matter?

Had Suzuki been sharp enough to impress automotive journalists with this sort of comparison test for the Grand Vitara, its full-time awd and perfect side-to-side AND end-to-end weight distribution would have shown it to be clearly superior to other small suv's.  And had Suzuki been sharp enough to market this performance....

As for the comment that awd is not needed in Canada, I'll try to remember that the next time I'm plowing through heavy damp snow up to the tops of the tires going uphill - in Canada.  Actually, I guess it isn't needed; I could stay home or wait for a snow plow and tow truck.

[Solstice2006]

As far as 'increased fuel consumption' goes with AWD, look no further than the upcoming 2014 Forester (yes, I'm obsessed) - gets better fuel economy than the new FWD Rav4 and even the new Forester XT gets similar economy (better in the city) than the AWD, significantly less powerful Rav4

I would wait for a few real world test drives to determine the fuel economy. 

There are several points already mentioned by others.  Yes AWD does have it's uses, and is more useful in areas that get more snow/rain.  And depending on the person driving, it can give a false sense of security, and many people think AWD helps you brake faster, which we know is not true. 

I agree with others, that the nannies like Traction Control, and Stability Control should be turned on.  And another AWD vehicle like the Ford Fusion AWD would have levelled the playing field, 2 AWD mid size sedans, and 2 FWD mid size sedans.

I am sure they Legacy has an impressive chassis, but as the last test drive in normal driving conditions, the author was unimpressed compared to other competitors in this class....

[Canadiain]

As for the comment that awd is not needed in Canada, I'll try to remember that the next time I'm plowing through heavy damp snow up to the tops of the tires going uphill - in Canada.  Actually, I guess it isn't needed; I could stay home or wait for a snow plow and tow truck.

The VAST majority of Canadian residents live in urban areas where those conditions are seldom going to be encountered.  Most canadian drivers would gain little from AWD except larger fuel costs.

I alternate between a Legacy and a Civic, (my wife has the Legacy most of the time).  The performance in the cold,  snow and ice with winter tires on is broadly the same.  Only very rarely is AWD a considerable advantage, and frankly on the very few days a year where the conditions are that bad in Ontario, maybe the smart thing to do IS to stay home, its not like I'm a firefighter or surgeon and people lives are relying on my making it to work.

The legacy is a solid vehicle, the low CofG and decent chassis make cornering and back road runs a pleasure, and its unerringly reliable.  Moving here from the UK 15 years ago winter intimidated me so I started off with a Jeep Cherokee for the 4x4 and high seating position, and when I smartened up a few years later I got a Legacy GT and later a Wagon.  But advances in traction and stability control and winter tire technology have very much levelled the playing field for the FWD competition Im afraid.  On a track AWD will win out, but on a daily commute the primary difference is the traction control light on the FWD civic tells you its slipery out but in the Legacy you notice the steering going a bit light as the power goes to the back wheels.

Plus I get 7l/100km from the civic compared to 10 in the legacy, and there is perversely more room in the back of the "compact" Civic than the near Midsize 07 Legacy.

[easyrider]

How can someone sit in a camry and then refer to the Subaru as bland?

[ipolski]

How can someone sit in a camry and then refer to the Subaru as bland?

By sitting in a Legacy...

[hemusbull]

I still think that Subaru should try front wheel drive only car in North America as they do it overseas. It will be in the same league as others with one big advantage: symetrical front wheel drive, an analogy to the Porsche symetrical rear wheel drive... 

[roundupready]

We drove both the 2010 GT and the 3.6R during the test drive.  The weight difference between the GT and H6 is supposed to be ~ (or <) 100 lbs difference on paper.  But once you start driving it, the weight feel was much more apparent.   You really feel the weight of the six cylinder over the turbo four.  So I imagine the difference is even greater between a N/A four.

[johngenx]

I agree that AWD is not really required for urban dwellers as long as real winter tires are used. As I noted, our Corolla gets around very well, often much better than SUVs riding on so-called-all-season tires. The reason we have to have a higher clearance AWD in the family is my frequent winter trips to the mountains.

Twice so far this winter I've been able to make it into and out of areas no FWD anything would have gone.  If I didn't need that ability, I'm not sure what I'd have. I despise FWD, even in winter. While the missus likes them, I haven't had a FWD car as my daily driver in over 20 years. RWD or AWD only, thanks.

[Flinter]

I'd certainly agree that for most Urban dwellers AWD is not a necessity.
However, I do take exception to those who say that AWD is no safer that FWD or RWD in winter conditions.

Here are some typical examples where I've felt a noticable difference in an AWD vehicle.:

1) You are on a snowy or slushy side street patiently waiting to enter a busy main street. You see your opening in traffic and when you attempt to accelerate, your lack of traction results in a very slow entry and you get T-boned or rear ended because you did not enter traffic and quickly as you thought you could.

2) You are going up a slippery inclined road and loose traction resulting in your driven wheels losing traction and therefore you lose directional control of your vehicle.

3) While accelerating out of a nice sweeping turn on the highway, you encounter ice and your acceleration forces cause the driven wheels to break loose, you lose control and end up in the ditch or the path of oncoming traffic.

I'm sure that these scenarios can be dangerous for an AWD vehice too, but  the additional traction gives the driver much more margin for error.

[dkaz]

AWD is a performance feature.

#1, drivers need to know how fast their car can accelerate in the snow and use that to determine if they can merge into traffic or not. #2 is simple, take your foot off the accelerator. I don't see how #3 can be compensated with AWD.  But all 3 items can be avoided with good winter tires.

[chuchupika]

I am still for AWD if I can afford it, if not then FWD is just fine.  It also depends on if the city shovel snow, maybe the city should save themselves $ and not salt the roads.  Let see how a RWD make the drive in the winter.  We know AWD > FWD > RWD in winter. 

Not sure why people are saying AWD is not needed.  Try getting out of a snow bank or uphill during a bad snow/ice day, you will wish you had AWD. 

Subarus are good, because standard AWD on all model.  The others you need to buy a higher model for tha AWD, like Audi. 

[Flinter]

AWD is a performance feature.

#1, drivers need to know how fast their car can accelerate in the snow and use that to determine if they can merge into traffic or not. #2 is simple, take your foot off the accelerator. I don't see how #3 can be compensated with AWD.  But all 3 items can be avoided with good winter tires.

I'd agree that all 3 scenarios can be avoided with good winter tires and/or appropriate driver responses.

However, the improved traction of AWD gives you more margin for error in each of these loss of traction scenarios. IMHO more margin for driver error = safer.

For example, Some might correctly say that Good quality tires and ability to execute threshold braking can make abs unnecessary but I think most of us still consider it a safety feature because our reactions in emergency situations are not always perfect.

[Mike]

Repeat after me:
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis,
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis,
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis....

The article highlights two main differences: powertrain and chasis; each are distinct and different. The braking and handling differences between the Legacy and the respective competitor Accord and Camry was due to the differences in weight distribution. This was most evident when they compared the Legacy 2.5 vs the Legacy 3.6 (with the same awd system of course).

After reading the reply comments I'm thinking the article is mis-titled: should've called it "The Benefits of Equal Weight Distribution" - to me that was the big showcase of the comparison.

I dunno,I'd still bet the Legacy with full time AWD would out steer and out brake the RWD BRZ(argueably the best balanced chasis ever) on the white cold stuff because of engine braking.

Guaranteed in braking and steering (with no throttle applications), the BRZ would steer around the Legacy all day long.  I know my Miata would

[mmret]

I think the more interesting question is the one regarding a tradeoff between a lighter car with more % of its weight on the front vs a heavier car with better distribution.

Nose heavy FWD cars under braking in the winter can make the back end very antsy...

[sacrat]

I really would have liked to see results with traction and stability control turned back ON.  Those systems were designed to prevent the kind of sliding around in turns that happened to both FWD vehicles in the test.

Quite right given that the playing field favoured the Subie even more given the following...

" First step was to disable all the stability and traction control systems in the vehicles. Like all modern Subarus, this cannot be achieved 100 percent as traction control can be turned off, but stability control is merely reduced. In the Honda Accord, all systems can be disabled and, surprisingly, so too in the Camry.