Topic: Comparison Test: City Cars

[5 Wheel Drive]

"If I were in a condo downtown and wanted an occasional alternative to transit, I'd probably use an auto-share service like Zipcar. But if I wanted to own something, and I didn't have any kids, a ForTwo would be a fun little car. I would have to evaluate if it's really worth the sacrifice in space/cargo compared to a Fit, but with the incentives Smart was offering this past fall the pricing would make it worth the downsize. If you need more room, autoshare or rent a car for that specific purpose."

I've driven one.  It isn't.  The novelty wore off after about 10 minutes.

[whaddaiknow]

I believe more people live in Toronto then the whole province of Alberta.  I haven't been to Toronto in a while but if it's like Vancouver most people live in condos because they can't afford a house.

Personally I would buy a Mazda2 or Fiat 500 over any of these cars but I can see they have their place.  Different tools for different jobs, a city car makes no sense on a farm in Alberta just as a full size pick up makes no sense in a condo in the city.

City of Toronto (what most people think of when they say 'Toronto') 2011 population: 2,615,060
Toronto CMA (the Toronto regional area according to StatsCan) 2011 population: 5,583,064
Alberta 2011 population: 3,645,257

There are more apartments than low-density housing (singles, semis, rows) in Toronto but on avg less people live in an apartment than low-density housing. Regardless, apartments will make up most of the growth in Toronto (the City, not the CMA which includes Regional Municipalities that have land for future low-density housing), partly because of price but most because the City of Toronto is built-out, there is no more greenfield land.

Another significant point about whether these cars are useful for "condo-dwellers", less than half of new apartment condos come with their own parking spaces. That means there are more condo-dwellers already moving on to more efficient transportation for their needs such as walking, transit and cycling. Yes even in the winter.

In terms of utility for getting around I don't see these city cars as being significantly more useful than the more mainstream sub/compacts. What is more significant for condo-dwellers is monthly cash flow, especially if they are financially stretched and didn't budget for increasing condo fees. In that light I don't see the value of these vehicles at all. Do I really want to pay a hundred or two more per month for the ability to u-turn tightly (how many times do you really u-turn a month) or have 1 or 2 more on-street parking spaces available (it's not like all of a sudden you'll be able to find parking anywhere you go)?

Until their pricing comes down they are more about status than functionality IMO.

Great post except for one thing. It would work in a city like Copenhagen where the public transit system is second to none or where something like 60% of population cycle to work all year round and the bike routes are ploughed before the main roads in the winter.

Unfortunately, and I can't stress it enough, the public transit system in Canada SUCKS big sweaty balls and is one of the most expensive and inefficient in the world. I wouldn't even think about driving 75km to/from work every friggin' day if the transit system in Ottawa were at least half decent. But the routes are inconvenient, the service is unreliable (schedules, bloody strikes), and expensive.

Canada is in its fetal stage when it comes to green efficient city living and everything is built around cars cars and more cars.
The trend is there. Ottawa sees a sharp increase in new condo development and a significant decrease in single house building but it is mostly limited to areas with easy access to downtown and transit routes.

So I see a marginal market for city cars in Canada today. I definitely wouldn't ridicule anyone buying one as long as their are just that - "city cars"
And I definitely hope municipalities invest more into green infrastructure encouraging people to ditch their pickup trucks in favour of non-gas using transportation (walking, cycling, public transit), so I can brag about my healthy lifestyle cycling to work instead of saying "I drive a bimmer".

(But we have to support the unionized GM plants in Ontario. Dammit, forget the above rant, I'm off to buy a pickup). Catch 22 until a strong willed politician makes an unpopular short-term executive decision in favour of a better future for our children.

[aaronk]

"If I were in a condo downtown and wanted an occasional alternative to transit, I'd probably use an auto-share service like Zipcar. But if I wanted to own something, and I didn't have any kids, a ForTwo would be a fun little car. I would have to evaluate if it's really worth the sacrifice in space/cargo compared to a Fit, but with the incentives Smart was offering this past fall the pricing would make it worth the downsize. If you need more room, autoshare or rent a car for that specific purpose."

I've driven one.  It isn't.  The novelty wore off after about 10 minutes.

Come to think of it, I have as well and you're right it was pretty awful. Well, at least it's cheap. I think a proper 5-speed manual would give this car a new lease on life.

[Vanstar]

All these cars are too expensive, and not fuel-efficient enough.  The Toyota's real-life MPG is embarrassing, it needs to be significantly better than the Yaris to be relevant.  Otherwise, what's the point?

I also want to meet the folks that would pay north of 20K for the overwrought design of the Spark, what a horrible-looking car.  Thankfully, I haven't seen one on the road yet.  Here's hoping it's a dud.

Old as it may be, the Smart serves its intended purpose in the best manner but it's out of its habitat here.

Im with you, I dont get the point of a "city car".....why not buy a real car you can use everywhere??? Especially those hideous Smart and IQs, really, you want almost $20K for 1/2 a car??? In most parts of canada these make no sense, you live in Vancouver, Toronto or something and really hate cars....take public transport.

Because not everyone lives on a long, flat prairie. This is the reason there is more than one type of car for sale in our market: there are more than one set of conditions.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. I for one and pleased it is available. The Spark, especially in the lower trim levels, would make a great little city run-about. Just wait a while for the incentives to start and I'd wager a nice Spark would be less than $15k.

[Vanstar]

...I think city cars have a place in Canada, especially the metro markets...

Exactly, it's a city car - it is designed to work and works very well in the city. There are lots of condo-goers that have expensive parking spots in tight underground parking garages where larger vehicles are clumsy and akward.

Where are all these condo-goers??? Not everyone lives in downtown toronto. Around here, once your out of school and under the age of 80, you live in a house.

Again, not everyone lives in rural Alberta. The golden horseshoe accounts for almost a  third of Canada's population, some nine million people, close to triple that of all of Alberta in an area much ,much smaller. This is where "all these condo-goers" are. There are also loads of them in Vancouver  and more going up all the time. Really, you need to get out more often. Small towns in Alberta are not the centre of the universe.

For someone living in  condo in downtown Vancouver, the Spark would be a perfect little weekend car. This is not an environment ofr an F350 truck. You'd never find a place to park it.

[takwu]

the Spark's 4 doors has the practicality that the other two cars (and the fiat 500) simply cannot match.  it can be used for child/infant seats.

first let me get this out of the way: don't be overly concerned on the safety of putting a child in a tiny car, as I don't see it any worse than on a larger car.

now why would someone with a child want a city car? simple, they don't travel far - if all they are doing is getting groceries and such errands at the nearest locations on a daily basis, without leaving the child(ren) at home.

so why not the larger subcompacts? well in short they are simply too large for the job. fuel efficiency and insurance cost can become very important if it's a second car in the household, plus being easy to find parking and park in any shopping mall lot just takes one more thing off the list of worries.

now all you have to do is practice stuffing an umbrella stroller in one of the seats and you are set

[5 Wheel Drive]

"now all you have to do is practice stuffing an umbrella stroller in one of the seats and you are set "

If I have to take up a seat for something as small as an umbrella stroller, then the car is of no use to me.  For family use, anyway...

[whaddaiknow]

..fuel efficiency and insurance cost can become very important if it's a second car in the household...

Not a fact... Insurance premiums appear to have little to do with the size of the car. In fact, I am paying less for my BMW than my previous Fit for the exact same coverage (both leased so full coverage is mandatory).

[Rupert]

I don't have a problem with the size.....it's the price that is troublesome. If these smallest vehicles turn you on and fit your need around the city, then go to it. But why does the price have to be equal to or more than the usual, more versatile, sub-compact. All the blue wonders not withstanding. They are not made here. Heck you can buy a Grand Caravan for less.

[Fobroader]

...I think city cars have a place in Canada, especially the metro markets...

Exactly, it's a city car - it is designed to work and works very well in the city. There are lots of condo-goers that have expensive parking spots in tight underground parking garages where larger vehicles are clumsy and akward.

Where are all these condo-goers??? Not everyone lives in downtown toronto. Around here, once your out of school and under the age of 80, you live in a house.

Again, not everyone lives in rural Alberta. The golden horseshoe accounts for almost a  third of Canada's population, some nine million people, close to triple that of all of Alberta in an area much ,much smaller. This is where "all these condo-goers" are. There are also loads of them in Vancouver  and more going up all the time. Really, you need to get out more often. Small towns in Alberta are not the centre of the universe.

For someone living in  condo in downtown Vancouver, the Spark would be a perfect little weekend car. This is not an environment ofr an F350 truck. You'd never find a place to park it.

I didnt say that small Alberta towns are the center of the universe, I just said that everywhere else outside of toronto and vancouver, people live in suburbs, in a house, where they have to drive a long distance to get to work, sometimes on high speed routes. Would I take the bus/LRT to work, hell no, here in Edmonton the system was designed by someone who obviously had no facking idea on what they were doing......probably related to the inbred that designed our road "system". These city cars might work if you live 10 blocks from work in a cramped little apartment, but for the rest of us, uhhhh, no.

[whaddaiknow]

I didnt say that small Alberta towns are the center of the universe, I just said that everywhere else outside of toronto and vancouver, people live in suburbs, in a house, where they have to drive a long distance to get to work, sometimes on high speed routes. Would I take the bus/LRT to work, hell no, here in Edmonton the system was designed by someone who obviously had no facking idea on what they were doing......probably related to the inbred that designed our road "system". These city cars might work if you live 10 blocks from work in a cramped little apartment, but for the rest of us, uhhhh, no.

So it wouldn't work for you or half of Canada. I wouldn't drive a subcompact in Alberta even if you stuck a gun to my temple because that's suicide.

But you can't ignore the rest of urban Canada which is a good ~50% of the population for whom the concept would work very well so the market is there but the conditions (road system, parking, driving culture, etc) is not even in its infant stage compared to Europe where subcompacts thrive.

[dkaz]

10 blocks from work, I would just bike or walk. No need to cause unnecessary wear on an engine that won't even see the coolant temp gauge go past the cold mark by the time you get to work.

Many Albertans drive compacts...

[Fobroader]

I didnt say that small Alberta towns are the center of the universe, I just said that everywhere else outside of toronto and vancouver, people live in suburbs, in a house, where they have to drive a long distance to get to work, sometimes on high speed routes. Would I take the bus/LRT to work, hell no, here in Edmonton the system was designed by someone who obviously had no facking idea on what they were doing......probably related to the inbred that designed our road "system". These city cars might work if you live 10 blocks from work in a cramped little apartment, but for the rest of us, uhhhh, no.

So it wouldn't work for you or half of Canada. I wouldn't drive a subcompact in Alberta even if you stuck a gun to my temple because that's suicide.

But you can't ignore the rest of urban Canada which is a good ~50% of the population for whom the concept would work very well so the market is there but the conditions (road system, parking, driving culture, etc) is not even in its infant stage compared to Europe where subcompacts thrive.

You can comfortably drive a small hatchback in Alberta, the number of crackhead, I work at site types with lifted duallies has been grossly over hyped. The problem I find, and one of the reasons I avoid downtown like the plague, is parking and poor bus routes. I can park anywhere and I cant get anywhere because, hey look, theres the bus stopping again, blocking a lane and causing havoc behind it.   

[SaskSpecV]

..fuel efficiency and insurance cost can become very important if it's a second car in the household...

Not a fact... Insurance premiums appear to have little to do with the size of the car. In fact, I am paying less for my BMW than my previous Fit for the exact same coverage (both leased so full coverage is mandatory).

I have no idea how the actuaries calculate the risks for insurance premiums, but I had the same experience in SK when looking at insurance rates for a Fit a couple years ago.  It was ~ $1200 a year (with full driving record discount), whereas most other small hatches were ~ $1000 (Mazda3 was aso fairly expensive). The few small wagons (Golf wagon, ET) available were cheaper, about $850.  That extra $200 - 300 a year in insurance premiums would more than negate any fuel economy benefit - though the insurance rates have been adjusted here recently, maybe the Fit isn't so steep any more.

As for "city car" insurance rates in SK, Spark is $930, iQ is $1128, and Smart is $1099 (full discount applied).  So definiely not any cheaper to insure than regular subcompacts or compacts.

[aaronk]

I agree, the 4-door Spark does make more sense for reasons of practicality. I wonder if some of the cost for these cars comes from more use of high-strength steel and the extensive engineering required to package a car so small. In something like a Ford Taurus you've got acres of space to run electrical, HVAC ducting, mechanical components, etc. In a Spark, everything has to be re-engineered to be more compact but do the same job.

[Ontariodriver]

This comparison make no sense. Spark wise. As said about the spark previously.

Trouble is unlike Europe small hatches seem expensive compared to a sub compact.  Spark starts in the UK £8,475.00. The Aveo/Sonic starts at £10,295.00 So almost 2,000 pounds cheaper and seems to make sense. The spark starts at $13,495 and  $14,495 Aveo/Sonic which make no sense. Only about 1000 bucks cheaper. So no big saving to make worth it's while. That is the real the trouble i see with these cars here. Also both cars are better equip and they don't nickle and dime you for Air conditioning. So both work out cheaper in Europe than here in NA.

[PJungnitsch]

The problem I find, and one of the reasons I avoid downtown like the plague, is parking....

And there we go. That's why these cars were invented. They make navigating and parking a breeze. On Whyte even my Vibe feels like an awkward giant.

My motorcycle similarly makes navigating the downtown much easier, but there's the ongoing possibility of getting squished.

[redman]

Honda seems to have a car that would suit my city needs. Not in production yet.

Honda Micro Commuter Prototype

The Micro Commuter Prototype has a maximum speed of 50 mph and a range of about 37 miles.
Honda said the concept includes a tablet device that can be charged by solar cells mounted on the vehicle's roof.

It all comes down to how much. Manufacturers are trying to be the best solution but forgetting to ask themselves "at what cost" would the consumer justify a city only car.

http://www.insideline.com/honda/honda-micro-commuter-prototype-unveiled.html

[Rupert]

   Prices must be also based on projected volume which is an unknown quantity at this point. I doubt that material specs are involved but tooling would be the same cost as for larger vehicles, I suspect, and design a bit trickier. Smaller brakes and engine/transmission and body parts, within reason, reduce the weight. Doors still have to be big enough to get in and out. Therin lies a problem...you can't scale down a human and their weight remains constant in the equation; gaining as a percentage overall. Yeah, parking prefference priviliges should be mandated here in cities. Nose or boot to curb for some.