Author Topic: How green are Hybrids?  (Read 265 times)

Offline sailor723

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How green are Hybrids?
« on: February 12, 2012, 11:04:13 am »
I was watching the Detroit Auto Show episode of  Motoring TV on TSN yesterday and Graeme Fletcher was making some comment about how hybrids have really failed to achieve any real sales success (mired in single digit marketshare was the term they used) and they then questioned if they were really any "cleaner" than a modern low emission ICE. They suggested they were 5x cleaner in Norway,about the same in Canada and 5x dirtier in China due to type of power generation.

Do you think there is any truth to this or is it just pro-ICE spin? It makes some sense as Norway is almost all hydro while China depends heavily on coal fired plants.
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Re: How green are Hybrids?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2012, 11:43:43 am »
 Hybrids or  all battery? Most of the toyota hybrids you don't plug in, so how would this have anything to do with coal fired powerplants?

Offline sailor723

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Re: How green are Hybrids?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2012, 01:09:52 pm »
Hybrids or  all battery? Most of the toyota hybrids you don't plug in, so how would this have anything to do with coal fired powerplants?

Good point...they must have been talking about plugins. (I was reading and only half paying attention to the TV)

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: How green are Hybrids?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2012, 03:30:27 pm »
I was watching the Detroit Auto Show episode of  Motoring TV on TSN yesterday and Graeme Fletcher was making some comment about how hybrids have really failed to achieve any real sales success (mired in single digit marketshare was the term they used) and they then questioned if they were really any "cleaner" than a modern low emission ICE. They suggested they were 5x cleaner in Norway,about the same in Canada and 5x dirtier in China due to type of power generation.

Do you think there is any truth to this or is it just pro-ICE spin? It makes some sense as Norway is almost all hydro while China depends heavily on coal fired plants.

Those guys say all sorts of unfounded things with respect to the environment.

Even when charged from coal fired power plants, battery powered cars end up being cleaner than gasoline powered cars. Somewhere around 70% of Canadian power comes from hydro/nuclear/alternative sources, so we'd be some way better than breaking even.
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Offline G35X

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Re: How green are Hybrids?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2012, 09:26:10 pm »
What did Mr. Fletcher mean by “clean”?  Was he talking about NOx and other chemical compounds that are directly harmful to our health and environment?  Or, was he talking about CO2, which is said to be causing global warming?

“Modern low emission ICE” – If he is talking about CO2, he must be talking about small displacement engines.  The amount of CO2 emission is directly related to the amount of fuel burned.  For example, a car that goes 100km on 10 litres of gas emits 100 percent more CO2 than a car that goes 100km on 5 litres of gas. There is no magic here.  Cat converters cannot reduce the amount of CO2.

Any car with a set of the same parameters such as mass, Cd, frontal area and tire rolling resistance requires the same amount of energy, be it derived from gas or electricity, to go from point A to B under the same speed map. So, the question is which car burns more fossil fuel to go a certain distance. 

ICE car and ICE+electric motor hybrid – Comparison easy.  Just compare the amount of fuel needed to go a certain distance. Knowing that the thermal efficiency of ICEs is about 25%, if a hybrid requires about 50 percent less fuel to go a certain distance than a similar size ICE only car (Prius vs Carolla, for example), we can presume the hybrid is in effect about 50 percent efficient thermally.

Electric car – Situation is rather complicated.  There are CO2 emitting power plants such as coal- or natural gas-fired plant and there are no CO2 emitting power plants such as hydro, nuke, wind and solar. All these plants are connected to the grid.

Suppose an EV is charged with energy generated only by coal- or natural gas-fired plants, although the thermal efficiency of the latest combined cycle plant is as high as 60 percent (thermal energy input vs. electrical energy output) I would guess the average efficiency of all the plants on the grid is 40 percent at best. Taking the loss in the transmission and charging the battery into consideration, we are talking about 35 percent or so of EV’s overall thermal efficiency, which is worse than the abovementioned hybrid example. So, EV causes more global warming than hybrid if on coal- and natural gas- fired plants only.

If an EV is charged with energy generated by hydro plants (British Columbia and Quebec) and nuke plants, the EV wins of course.  The real situation is somewhere in-between, but I do not think the overall grid thermal efficiency is as high as hybrid’s 50 percent.

To complicate the situation BC and Quebec are not totally CO2 emission free. Since output of hydro plants is relatively easy to reduce or shut down during off-peak hours these provinces are buying cheap surplus electricity from other jurisdictions (as far away as California) by reducing output of their hydro plants (saves water). During off-peak hours BC and Quebec are causing CO2 emissions elsewhere.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: How green are Hybrids?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 01:10:28 am »
Even allowing for transmission losses and so forth EVs still come out ahead in most studies when generation is 100% coal. Coal fired generation in Canada makes up only 19% of the total.

Things become more complicated when fuel production is factored in. Gasoline from tar sands releases a huge amount of CO2 before it leaves the refiner, for example.

Offline Arthur Dent

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Re: How green are Hybrids?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 10:34:20 am »
I wish they'd take account actual production of the vehicle into consideration as well. That way we'd have a more accurate measure of impact. Might possibly best to renovate older vehicles and add modern power trains.

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Re: How green are Hybrids?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 11:24:11 am »
Even with "dirty" coal power plants, you get higher thermal efficiencies plus the technology exists to capture CO2 from these large plants.
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Offline kenm

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Re: How green are Hybrids?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 06:25:31 pm »
Suppose an EV is charged with energy generated only by coal- or natural gas-fired plants, although the thermal efficiency of the latest combined cycle plant is as high as 60 percent (thermal energy input vs. electrical energy output) I would guess the average efficiency of all the plants on the grid is 40 percent at best. Taking the loss in the transmission and charging the battery into consideration, we are talking about 35 percent or so of EV’s overall thermal efficiency, which is worse than the abovementioned hybrid example. So, EV causes more global warming than hybrid if on coal- and natural gas- fired plants only.

So let's see if I've got this straight. The overall electrical grid and battery charging efficiencies are important factors for calculating the energy footprint of the EVs, yet the fully refined gasoline consumed by the ICEs and hybrids, as if by magic, comes right out of the ground at your nearest gas bar. In other words, the massive refinery and fuel distribution grid, has absolutely no additional energy requirements or environmental impact. That's facking amazing!



« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 06:28:32 pm by kenm »