Author Topic: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance  (Read 818 times)

Offline davidy

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Was somewhat bored today....went to CT and looked very closely at the Goodyear Nordic winter tires....noticed that the sipes are not very deep at all....might be 15-25% of the tread depth. The sipes on the General Altimax Arctic and Michelin XIce Xi2 are relatively much deeper....more than 50% of the tread depth. Sipes are needed to provide traction/braking on ice. Other than it's special rubber compound which stays softer in colder temperatures, there are much more sipes in winter tires than all season or all terrain tires. If the sipes are not deep, the traction/braking capabilities of a winter tire will be greatly diminished as the tread wears down. Once the sipes are gone, this tire will be similar to an all season tire (except for the softer rubber compound).

APA Canada rates the Xi2 and Altimax much higher than the Nordics.

The sipes of an all weather tire, Hankook Optimo 4S, were also observed to be quite shallow...deeper than the Goodyear Nordics, but much shallower than the Xi2 or Altimax. At room temperature, the rubber compound on the 4S is harder than the Altimax, Xi2 or Nordics.

Another observation is the tread differences between Xi2 and General Altimax Arctic....Xi2's tread are closer together (vs. General Altimax Arctic). This might explain why the Xi2's are not that good in wet, slushy snow conditions like what is typically experienced in Vancouver or the Pacific Northwest. A more open tread would likely assist in clearing out the snow as it rolls. I suspect that the Xi2's close tread design would be a benefit on icy roads (vs. Altimax).

Dave
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 05:41:22 pm by davidy »
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Offline ktm525

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 05:57:59 pm »
You are lucky no one called security to deal with the gentleman fondling the tire sipes.. ;)

Offline mrthompson

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2011, 09:17:47 am »
 :rofl2:


Interesting observations, davidy.

Offline safristi

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2011, 09:37:55 am »
..wots to stop one umm extending the sipes depth or adding new ones?......once upon a time folk farked around with their tyres in the privacy of their own garages....... :shuffle: :run:...

 now don't get carried away with that $2.99 pumpkin knife just sitting there......................just a thought but the softer rubber may "deform" if the sipes are too deep...making for a jello wobbly ride..if the rubber is firmer but still Winter practical (soft/er below 6C) then a deeper cut is allowable................Bibendum Saf pontificates.....
THERE IS NO CURE FOR "LOTUS"......ONLY TREATMENT.....

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 02:00:20 am »
Depth of sipes is a really important point.  I'd noted that usually sipes disappear as the tires wear, leaving progressively less snow traction. But I'd never thought of comparing tires on that criterium.  I HAD thought of comparing tread depth, which finalized my choice of Blizzak DMZ-3 over Michelin X-Ice.

I'd speculate that manufacturers like to make sipes shallow, since this makes the tread blocks stiffer resulting in better handling, and it makes the tires ineffective sooner.  Presumably it takes better engineering to have deep sipes with firm tread blocks, and a modest manufacturer to make the sipes deep without saying anything about it.

Each year before installing my snow tires, I go to the significant trouble of using a small screwdriver to pick gravel out of the DMZ-3's sipes.  Virtually every one of hundreds of sipes has gravel in it, so it has to be enough to do the sipes with gravel large enough to be seen.  The idea is that many of these bits of gravel are sharp enough to slice through the rubber, and/or penetrate to the tire structure resulting in delamination due to water penetration.  I can see they do damage to the tread block construction.

So, I happen to know exactly how deep the sipes are on DMZ-3's.  Most of them go all the way to the bottoms of the tread blocks, and the rest of them go below the depth at which the tires are otherwise worn out.  The DMZ-3's also have a second set of wear bars so you know when they get to the bottom of the special winter compound (and have a normal winter compound for the remaining tread depth).

Offline safristi

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2011, 09:12:48 am »
 ::)...Picky    Picky..............i've just spent an hour "sucking!" out the wee stones in the families Summers.........maybe i should just accept the inevability of Quarry bits...and say they ADD GRIP   SUMMER OR WINTER tyre wise............SIPER FI bro......... ;D

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2011, 10:18:25 am »
Picking gravel out of the sipes?

I admire your dedication, but don't see the point unless you're willing to make this a weekly (or daily?!?) exercise. I bet after your first drive of the winter the tires are full of gravel again.




Offline safristi

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2011, 10:27:08 am »
 ::)  "it's required by the NEW MICHELIN X1 Ice X2's  WARRANTY"


  read the small stoners print.............. :rofl:..............actually it's not that far off reality to get the 60,000K warranty refund :'(......and I have them on the Veloster................maybe they could come up with TYREFLOSS that 9 outta 10 DENTISTS could recommend.......... ;D ;D ;D......

 ya never know which lil stone is gonna fack yer $250 tyre.........i don't do it religiously but when i see aBIG STONER walking up to the car I give it the LAST RIGHTS and excommunicate it....... :rofl2:

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 02:32:02 am »
Picking gravel out of the sipes?

I admire your dedication, but don't see the point unless you're willing to make this a weekly (or daily?!?) exercise. I bet after your first drive of the winter the tires are full of gravel again.

I considered this (and that removing the gravel is an indication of mental problems).  It's hard to tell what's going on.  It's possible gravel gets embedded and then thrown out at higher speeds.  Or some of it gets thrown out.  I suppose if it built up, every sipe would have damaging chunks of gravel in it.  Since I clean it out, I don't know if I'm interrupting the buildup, or if I'm just seeing an equilibrium level of it.  I do see a similar amount to remove every year.

What I do know for sure is that it only takes a couple of hours to do the four tires, and that some of these shards of gravel definitely slice the rubber, and that delamination has cost me a set of tires in the past, and given that vehicles such as this require matched sets of tires ignoring a possible source of damage could be very costly.

As for the village id..., I'm sure glad this site has an ignore function.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 02:52:14 am »


I considered this (and that removing the gravel is an indication of mental problems)

Whew!!  Glad you preemptively said that.... :rofl2:
How fast is my Supra?  I sh*t on Cessnas from a roll....

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2011, 09:27:17 pm »


I considered this (and that removing the gravel is an indication of mental problems)

Whew!!  Glad you preemptively said that.... :rofl2:

But seriously, once I found chunks of sharp-edged gravel in the sipes it was difficult not to consider that the gravel could cause early failure of the tires.  It followed logically that it was worthwhile to head off such damage by removing at least the larger bits.  I really don't know, because I haven't seen the subject of rock chips buried in the deep sipes of snow tires addressed anywhere.  I wonder if the tire manufacturers look into this?

I don't think this is any more obsessive than, for instance, the many people who do some extreme fussing over their car's paint.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2011, 09:38:44 pm »


I don't think this is any more obsessive than, for instance, the many people who do some extreme fussing over their car's paint.

The paint you can actually see...and improves the appearance and value of your car.  Pebbles in the tires?  No so much.

Offline safristi

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 03:56:40 pm »
 ::) have you NO HEART....................don't the FLINTY STONES wreck yer TYRED hungry masses...........!!!!

Offline Art

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2011, 12:59:06 pm »
I remove all stones from my tires before they are put away for the season.  The purpose is to verify that there are no nails or sharp objects embedded in the tire.  When I find something (quite often) I have lots of time to get the tire fixed.

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2011, 02:06:18 pm »
I remove all stones from my tires before they are put away for the season.  The purpose is to verify that there are no nails or sharp objects embedded in the tire.  When I find something (quite often) I have lots of time to get the tire fixed.

Good point.  I've dug out pebbles that turned out to have knifed in all the way to the cords.  Removing them prevented further damage and sealing the cuts saved the tires from cord separation.

I suppose some people might be sufficiently wealthy that it's not worth an hour or two per year to do this, but even then it's an unwise waste of resources replacing tires that could easily have been saved.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Observed differences in winter tire sipes and treads vs. performance
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2011, 05:11:45 pm »
I do the same, and last year found a nail in one of my winter tires.  It's a good time to go over the tires and look for damage, wear patterns, etc.  Inflate them to the proper pressure (if not already) and then have a check mid season to ensure they're holding air so you don't get a flat-surprise on installation day.
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