Topic: CD - Camry 2012 Road Test

[Vanstar]

When my uncle bought his 2010 V6 Camry, he remarked how smooth and powerful the 3.5L V6 felt - and that the 2.4L felt underpowered, especially for passing on the highway.  But now that Toyota uses the 2.5L instead of the 2.4L, I wonder if the extra power would have changed his mind.  I suspect not, he really loves that V6.

Ironically, he said that was not the case when test driving Altimas - the 2.5L had sufficient oomph, and while the 3.5L V6 had more yet, it wasn't nearly the difference as the 4- to 6-cylinder in the Camry.  If he had decided on the Altima, he would have gotten the 4-banger.
To be fair, Nissan does have a relatively potent 2.5L.  And I wonder if Nissan's CVT is dulling the response of the V6. 

My experience is whether you go for a 4 banger or the V-6 depends very much on where you live. On the prairies, my TL can get very impressive fuel economy, I have seen as low as 7.0 at sane speeds and 9.0 at insane speeds. In Vancouver's traffic mess, that often goes to 11.0. Four bangers really aren't any more fuel efficient on the highway because they turn faster. In the city, however, you will see a considerable improvement with the four and you will rarely get to use the extra power of the V-6. Personally, were I to go out and buy a new car today (or lightly used, as is my habit) I would choose the TSX over the TL, because it is lighter and uses less fuel. But that is my choice. Anyone else can buy what they want. Personally, I like the way lighter cars handle on places like Roger's Pass or Kootenay Pass.

I would wager we are seeing the end of the line for high powered family cars anyway. The Sonata is four cylinder only as is the upcoming Malibu. With the 2016 CAFE laws looming, we will see the V-6 cars offered in premium offerings like Lexus, Acura or cars like the Genesis, where there is more money to be made.

[Jaeger]

I would wager we are seeing the end of the line for high powered family cars anyway. The Sonata is four cylinder only as is the upcoming Malibu. With the 2016 CAFE laws looming, we will see the V-6 cars offered in premium offerings like Lexus, Acura or cars like the Genesis, where there is more money to be made.

Huh?  How do you figure the Sonata exemplifies the "end of the line for high powered family cars" just because it's 4-cylinder only?  You do realize that one of those 4-cylinder engines puts out more power than the V6 in the Camry, right?

Jaeger

[Jaeger]

Jaeger, I tend to purchase higher end vehicles at this stage of my life and in my opinion anyway, a family sedan, which is what is Camry is, is better with a 4 banger. It is not much of a move up from a loaded V-6 Camry to an Acura or a BMW.

You seem to think that V6 level power should be the exclusive province of luxury brands.  You are more than entitles to your opinion.  But the market clearly disagrees with you.  Enough people "need" / want that level of power in their mainstream family sedan to support not only their existence, but proliferation in the market place.  Accord, Altima, Sonata, Optima, Camry, Chrysler 200, Mazda 6, Fusion - all offer more than 250hp in their uplevel engines.  None are luxury cars.  None are premium sports sedans.  But all of those manufacturers see a market for the more powerful models even if they sell in les quantity than their less powerful siblings. 

They way I see it - choice is good.  The customer can decide.  The way you see it - apparently - is that you prefer a base level 4-pot motor in this class, therefore it makes no sense for someone else to have a different preference.  That is the part I don't get - your global pronouncement that "no-one needs a family sedan this fast".  Who appointed you spokesperson for all car consumers?  Please stop confusing your own personal preferences with intractable rules of universal application.

Jaeger

[johngenx]

Four bangers really aren't any more fuel efficient on the highway because they turn faster.

Not really.  With identical gearing, why would a four cylinder spinning at 2200rpm at 100km/h turn faster than a V-6 at 2200rpm?  Same speed.

Perhaps makers give four cylinder cars steeper gearing?  Sometimes.

It mostly has to do with how many hp a given car needs to drive at a given speed, and how efficient the engine/gearing combination is at that speed.  Aerodynamics are a big one, which is why even large family sedans typically get much better fuel economy on the highway than a comparable SUV with the same engine.  A 3.5L Camry does better than the 3.5L Highlander thanks to the better aero profile and lower weight (less to lug up hills).

As for gearing, it plays a role, but taller gearing is not always better.  An engine that operates at too low of an rpm may need constant downshifting.  It may also mean larger throttle opening at lower rpm, which also hurts fuel economy.

A 1.8L equipped Corolla spins much quicker than many engines at highway speed, and yet is very fuel efficient.  The small displacement, efficient engine (design and fuel management) and slippery body are the keys.  The shorter gearing is suited to the engine's power curve.

Fuel economy is much more complex than "turns faster."

[Vanstar]

Jaeger, I tend to purchase higher end vehicles at this stage of my life and in my opinion anyway, a family sedan, which is what is Camry is, is better with a 4 banger. It is not much of a move up from a loaded V-6 Camry to an Acura or a BMW.

You seem to think that V6 level power should be the exclusive province of luxury brands.  You are more than entitles to your opinion.  But the market clearly disagrees with you.  Enough people "need" / want that level of power in their mainstream family sedan to support not only their existence, but proliferation in the market place.  Accord, Altima, Sonata, Optima, Camry, Mazda 6, Fusion - all offer more than 250hp in their uplevel engines.  None are luxury cars.  None are premium sports sedans.  But all of those manufacturers see a market for the more powerful models even if they sell in les quantity than their less powerful siblings. 

They way I see it - choice is good.  The customer can decide.  The way you see it - apparently - is that you prefer a base level 4-pot motor in this class, therefore it makes no sense for someone else to have a different preference.  That is the part I don't get - your global pronouncement that "no-one needs a V6" in this segment.  Who appointed you spokesperson for all car consumers?  Please stop confusing your own personal preferences with intractable rules of universal application.

Jaeger

Sir, I don't see why you have to be so combative and confrontational here, nor do I feel it necessary that you put words in my mouth. I don't recall where I made any "global pronouncement" about anything, nor "intractable rules of universal observation." I was simply stating my preferences. I will state my preferences again. Were I in the market for a family sedan, I would buy a four cylinder, based on where I live and my needs. Were I to buy a more powerful sport-type sedan, I would pay the small extra premium for a premium brand. Anyone else can buy anything they want, it is really not my business. I do also think that we will be seeing significant changes in powerplants in the very near term due to CAFE regulations in the USA becoming more strict.

My mother (may she rest in peace) taught me to play well with others. She also taught me that other people have different opinions to mine and if they are valid, they are worthy of respect.  I can learn quite a bit about the world by listening to the views of others and not discounting them out of hand.

[Jaeger]

Sir, I don't see why you have to be so combative and confrontational here, nor do I feel it necessary that you put words in my mouth. I don't recall where I made any "global pronouncement" about anything, nor "intractable rules of universal observation." I was simply stating my preferences. I will state my preferences again. Were I in the market for a family sedan, I would buy a four cylinder, based on where I live and my needs. Were I to buy a more powerful sport-type sedan, I would pay the small extra premium for a premium brand. Anyone else can buy anything they want, it is really not my business. I do also think that we will be seeing significant changes in powerplants in the very near term due to CAFE regulations in the USA becoming more strict.

"Jaeger" will suffice, "sir" is unnecessary.  Your entirely rhetorical question "Who needs a family hauler that can do 60mph in 5.8 seconds?" was a global pronouncement to the effect that no-one does.  It was backed up by your sarcastic comment about the inadequacy of your 258hp ride and the need to replace it with something making 400hp.  That was sarcasm, wasn't it?  Or are you shopping for a 400hp ride?  Is sarcasm your very particular method of showing respect?

Stating your preference is fine - that's what you are doing - NOW.

Could you explain, please, how the Sonata exemplifies the end of the powerful front drive family sedan?  I'm still trying to make sense of that.  The Malibu currently stands as the exception to the rule in not offering an up-level motor.  And it still might.

Jaeger

[Oldsguy]

Looks like it comes standard with a factory installed dash mat.

Toyota sells, what, 5% of these with the V-6? It is undoubtedly a good engine and makes the car quick, but in reality it is irrelevant for the vast majority of buyers. The styling already looks dated and I wonder if this model will result in the Camry's eventual decline as the competition steps up.

[tpl]

As for gearing, it plays a role, but taller gearing is not always better.  An engine that operates at too low of an rpm may need constant downshifting.  It may also mean larger throttle opening at lower rpm, which also hurts fuel economy.

A 1.8L equipped Corolla spins much quicker than many engines at highway speed, and yet is very fuel efficient.  The small displacement, efficient engine (design and fuel management) and slippery body are the keys.  The shorter gearing is suited to the engine's power curve.

Fuel economy is much more complex than "turns faster."

Theoretically an Otto cycle engine is at its most efficient when the throttle ( aka inlet air restriction) is wide open. But that is just theory as far as family sedans go.

That 1.8 Corolla engine, is a good example of a "right sized" engine as is the 1.8 turbo in the X1, 2.0t in various VW/Audi vehicles and even the 3.5 Ecotech in big Ford SUVs and trucks.  I wonder if the next but one Corolla won't have a 1.4 turbo, or even a 1.2.  We will see.

As Vanstar points out, we will be seeing some  changes and IMHO a lot of those changes will be into "right sized" engines

I do also think that we will be seeing significant changes in powerplants in the very near term due to CAFE regulations in the USA becoming more strict.

[Jaeger]

Toyota sells, what, 5% of these with the V-6?

Source?

Jaeger

[Vanstar]

Looks like it comes standard with a factory installed dash mat.

Toyota sells, what, 5% of these with the V-6? It is undoubtedly a good engine and makes the car quick, but in reality it is irrelevant for the vast majority of buyers. The styling already looks dated and I wonder if this model will result in the Camry's eventual decline as the competition steps up.

Actually, as an small "c" conservative old phart, I rather like the styling of the new Camry. I like the price, too, and in my opinion it is a good buy for the money. This is a a price sensitive segment.

The roads in the USA are awash with the Camry LE, the cars are ubiquitous there. The 2012 can be put on the road in the USA for $22,715 which is only $1400 more than the Sonata. I would wager Toyota will keep its #1 sales position for a while longer.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Of all the 2006 Ford Fusions sold, 43 percent were four-cylinder models. Three years later, 73 percent of Ford Fusions sold were four-cylinder models, Ford reported.

According to Ward's, during the first half of the 2009 model year the following midsize nameplates had a much higher percentage of four-cylinder models sold than V-6s: Chevrolet Malibu, 81 percent; Honda Accord, 76 percent; Nissan Altima, 93 percent; Toyota Camry, 90 percent.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100107/OPINION03/1070429/V-6-engines-begin-long-fade-into-history#ixzz1ZeJ7v9e6

[G35X]

“Theoretically an Otto cycle engine is at its most efficient when the throttle (aka inlet air restriction) is wide open. But that is just theory as far as family sedans go.” – tpl

This is true in practice, too.  One way is do away with the throttle valve entirely (BMW Valvetronics, Fiat TwinAir and diesel engines). Another is recirculate oxygen-depleted exhaust gas back to intake manifold aggressively (Honda Insight).  The purpose of the latter is to let the driver step on it deeper (wider throttle opening) when load is low.  I think these days many manufacturers are using EGR aggressively for better fuel economy (in addition to its original purpose of reducing the amount of NOX emission). 

[jww]

Regardless of the speed capabilities which are impressive -- the Camry still looks like a partially used bar of soap that's been sitting in the shower for a week.

[Vanstar]

Regardless of the speed capabilities which are impressive -- the Camry still looks like a partially used bar of soap that's been sitting in the shower for a week.

We will see more of this in the near future. Aerodynamics are an easy way to reduce fuel consumption.

[airbalancer]

Regardless of the speed capabilities which are impressive -- the Camry still looks like a partially used bar of soap that's been sitting in the shower for a week.

We will see more of this in the near future. Aerodynamics are an easy way to reduce fuel consumption.

I was talking about that the mid 80's with a salesmanger,