Topic: Auto Tech: Mazda SkyActiv Technology

[quadzilla]

Look it up , I'm not your teacher .

How can I look up something that isn't true?

[theonlydt]

For some reason, I equate what Mazda is doing with SkyActiv Technology to what Subaru's been doing with the PZEV label; ie. put a name on what many others have been doing already. It's all about marketing.

PZEV is not a fuel economy technology and is actual a status conferred by California's emissions laws. PZEVs reduce the level of unburnt hydrocarbons and other nasties below the level of ULEVs - which are the majority of new vehicles on sale. It has nothing to do with fuel economy - whilst skyactiv is mostly about fuel economy.

Tell me again how Subaru are just "putting a name on it"?

[ajay]

Skyactiv is much more than just better mpg .
Its enchancing the whole driving experience even more so . This short video shows the transmission , (Just one of the 3 pronged approach they have taken).
Simply put,  these cars will be even better driver cars than ever before .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjzQjB4bPVo

[Ice]

What 3 new aspects were they again?

Uhhh... from the article:

SkyActiv technology falls into three areas of the vehicle. The first is to develop new engines, which Mazda has done with new gas and diesel engines that feature 14:1 compression ratios to optimize engine efficiency. The second part is to develop highly efficient transmissions for effective transfer of power; the third part is to use technology to develop high-strength bodies and chassis that maximize safety and performance while reducing vehicle weight too.

Those are the three approaches they are taking to improve fuel economy. Not unless you want to argue semantics

It's a smart move to approach fuel economy and performance and go at it from all angles. Mazda has never been fuel economy king but I have a feeling that they will keep edging in the right direction and probably holding on to their sport and fun reputation while they're at it.

[ajay]

This is a british clip on Skyactiv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxwGp74_Xw

[Shnak]

This is just ridiculous. Mazda's innovative 3 new aspects to improve fuel economy? Improving the engine, improving the transmission and reducing weight. How exactly is that any different than what Hyundai's done with their latest Sonata, for example? They've shaved off something like 300 pounds from the previous generation, developped a new 6-speed transmission in-house that uses a lot less parts and weighs a lot less than the previous 5-speed they used, and they introduced Direct Injection to their 4 cylinder engine to increase power while decreasing fuel consumption. How is that not a '3 pronged approach' to improving fuel economy? I honestly don't understand what Mazda's doing here other than finally trying to catch up with its competitors. This is all PR, IMO.

Oh, and I've read a few places that the technologies Subaru puts in their PZEV cars is pretty much the same as those found in other vehicles, they just put a name on these technologies so that people feel better about themselves. Might be wrong, not sure.

[tortoise]

Of course it is all PR.  What did you expect Mazda to do?  Quietly release a new set of engines that offer substantially reduced consumption and not tell anybody about it?

They had to tell consumers that they're finally offering competitive fuel economy and coming up with "SkyActiv" is how they chose to do it.

Next you'll be hating on Audi for marketing their "Quattro" or BMW their "X-Drive" or Subaru their "Symmetrical AWD" since they're just AWD systems and everyone makes them.

I'd like the Mazda5 but the fuel consumption it too high for me to consider it,  I'd take a Mazda6 wagon instead.   Now, if the 5 could get into the low 7's I'd be waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more interested.

[theonlydt]

This is just ridiculous. Mazda's innovative 3 new aspects to improve fuel economy? Improving the engine, improving the transmission and reducing weight. How exactly is that any different than what Hyundai's done with their latest Sonata, for example? They've shaved off something like 300 pounds from the previous generation, developped a new 6-speed transmission in-house that uses a lot less parts and weighs a lot less than the previous 5-speed they used, and they introduced Direct Injection to their 4 cylinder engine to increase power while decreasing fuel consumption. How is that not a '3 pronged approach' to improving fuel economy? I honestly don't understand what Mazda's doing here other than finally trying to catch up with its competitors. This is all PR, IMO.

Oh, and I've read a few places that the technologies Subaru puts in their PZEV cars is pretty much the same as those found in other vehicles, they just put a name on these technologies so that people feel better about themselves. Might be wrong, not sure.

Skyactiv is just a name given to their efforts. I think skyactiv is common sense - rather than going the hybrid route. It's the same approach that BMW and, as you rightly say, Hyundai, are following (though both those manufacturers are also going hybrid). The most innovative part of the sky-activ engines are the very high compression ratio, which helps low/mid range torque without the use of a turbo. Mazda have stated they are against downsizing, as displacement will still be important when ignition/compression engines finally hit the market (engines that burn gasoline, use spark ignition when accelerating hard, but compression ignition when cruising for greater economy).

For info on PZEV see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_zero-emissions_vehicle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Low_Emission_Vehicle

Most cars on sale are ULEV - one of the most important aspects with PZEV is that you don't get an escape of gasoline from evaporative emissions. I think Subaru are using it as a sales driver, as it is making them different - therefore it is PR, but it's to meet a standard that's set by legislation - unlike a tag line like skyactiv

[theonlydt]

Next you'll be hating on Audi for marketing their "Quattro" or BMW their "X-Drive" or Subaru their "Symmetrical AWD" since they're just AWD systems and everyone makes them.

Subaru's "symmetrical awd" is actually quite special... it lines up all major driveline components down the centre line of the car, the only awd system to do so. This reduces driveline wear (less crazy angles) and improves fuel economy (less angled joints) and improved handling (weight distribution). It also means it's a full-time AWD system. Now, some of their engines are barely competitive, their 4 speed auto is a joke and fuel economy will not compare to a fwd rival, but I'd still argue their awd system is pretty special

[Shnak]

Next you'll be hating on Audi for marketing their "Quattro" or BMW their "X-Drive" or Subaru their "Symmetrical AWD" since they're just AWD systems and everyone makes them.

But that's different. That's putting a name on an actual product, or feature. Labelling a concept as broad and generic as improving fuel economy is stupid, IMO. It'd be one thing if they did something drastically different to their engine and then naming that new line of engine "SkyActiv" engines, similarily to what Ford's done with their EcoBoost engines. But that's not what they're doing. They're improving their engines, transmissions and reducing weight, and PR-twisting it to actually try to make us believe that this is a whole new approach at reducing fuel consumption. That's just misleading people.

[tpl]

Next you'll be hating on Audi for marketing their "Quattro" or BMW their "X-Drive" or Subaru their "Symmetrical AWD" since they're just AWD systems and everyone makes them.

Subaru's "symmetrical awd" is actually quite special... it lines up all major driveline components down the centre line of the car, the only awd system to do so. This reduces driveline wear (less crazy angles) and improves fuel economy (less angled joints) and improved handling (weight distribution). It also means it's a full-time AWD system. Now, some of their engines are barely competitive, their 4 speed auto is a joke and fuel economy will not compare to a fwd rival, but I'd still argue their awd system is pretty special

I seem to remember that the Audi A4 Quattro  also lines up all the driveline bits down the centre line...or at least my 2000 model certainly did.  The Quattro with a Torsen centre diff was totally full time AWD  no funny clutches or electronics.
 
The BAD thing about both the Subaru and the Audi is having to have the engine too far forward which hurts weight distribution. Alleviated somewhat in the Subie with the low cg gained by the flat engine.



Also the first modern BMW AWD ( 2002 to 2005 was 90% in line with just a 2' long shaft running beside the oil sump to the front differential.  Was absolutely full time AWD.

[nlm]

But that's not what they're doing. They're improving their engines, transmissions and reducing weight, and PR-twisting it to actually try to make us believe that this is a whole new approach at reducing fuel consumption. That's just misleading people.

But....they are reducing fuel consumption.  Again, the *new* high-compression ratio is unique, so is this not a new approach?  Its fine if you don't like their approach or don't find it appealing to you, but the high-compression route especially is different than what others are doing. 

I agree though applying the name to all of the three different areas as an overall concept X is confusing when people are used to labels for a specific component or technology such as EcoBoost, Symmetrical AWD, xDrive....

[Shnak]

But that's not what they're doing. They're improving their engines, transmissions and reducing weight, and PR-twisting it to actually try to make us believe that this is a whole new approach at reducing fuel consumption. That's just misleading people.

But....they are reducing fuel consumption.  Again, the *new* high-compression ratio is unique, so is this not a new approach?  Its fine if you don't like their approach or don't find it appealing to you, but the high-compression route especially is different than what others are doing. 

I agree though applying the name to all of the three different areas as an overall concept X is confusing when people are used to labels for a specific component or technology such as EcoBoost, Symmetrical AWD, xDrive....

Fine, high-compression ratio. Isn't there already talks that the 14:1 ratio will be tuned down to a closer to normal 12:1 so that it can run on regular gas instead of the high octane 14:1 requires? Pretty sure I saw that somewhere. Anyways, we'll see how these changes all come together as it comes to market, but until then, let's just say that I'm hesitant to call what Mazda's doing here as being a game changer or revolutionary. But maybe it is, who knows. We'll see.

[tortoise]

Nobody is saying it's a game changer or revolutionary.

It's a big deal for MAZDA since they've never been competitive on the fuel economy front and now more than ever fuel economy sells.  IMO Mazda's sold because they offered a driving experience above their weight class in spite of the fuel economy hit.  Now potential shoppers can have their cake and eat it too.

[ajay]

Its unfortuneate they have dropped their compression in the Mazda 3 . All these improvements to improve gas mileage has not affected the driving experience at all , like the automatic in the Ford Fiesta did .  What they have down through clever engineering is actually improve the driving experience which is not always done in the quest for better mpg .

See british video clip in an above post and it shows how successful they have been and that cars body
has not shaved weight off it .
 
It is a real pity we loose out in the additional torque the 14 to 1 offers . Regardless , they did not sacrifice their ZOOM ZOOM in there quest to get better gas mileage and thats the whole point .

How do you think Hyundai got their vehicles so light ? It was most likely from tearing apart a Mazda 2 in their research plant . They had a mazda torn apart to see what they could learn from it , my bet is it was the Mazda 2 , so they could learn its weight saving secrets which they incorporated into their cars .
Hopefully Mazda has improved its weight saving techniques since then which will show up in the next mazda 2
Prove in the pudding will be when the Accent or Velostar are tested against the new Mazda 2 . My moneys on the Mazda .

[whaddaiknow]

How do you think Hyundai got their vehicles so light ? It was most likely from tearing apart a Mazda 2 in their research plant . They had a mazda torn apart to see what they could learn from it , my bet is it was the Mazda 2 , so they could learn its weight saving secrets which they incorporated into their cars .
Hopefully Mazda has improved its weight saving techniques since then which will show up in the next mazda 2
Prove in the pudding will be when the Accent or Velostar are tested against the new Mazda 2 . My moneys on the Mazda .

Problem with your post is Hyundai is so much bigger than Mazda it could swallow it whole and not notice, and they have loads more experience with high-strength steel. Your claim is far fetched. Sure, MOST manufacturers take apart competing models to learn something new, you've just taken it to a whole new level.

I love Mazda's for what they are but I also hope Hyundai doesn't learn from Mazda how to make their bodies rust through in 2 years or less

[ajay]

Jil did an excellent report on the Hyundai Kia research plant , it would open your eyes , looked for it for 3 min , couldn't find it .
Believe what you want .

[ajay]

quote
Problem with your post is Hyundai is so much bigger than Mazda it could swallow it whole and not notice
end quote
So .

They took the Mazda apart to learn from it . Its what they do, They aren't to proud to use other car makers ideas .
Hyundai got where they are so fast from the pony days by taking the best ideas of other cars .
Everybody has high strength steel now, its how weight is taken off every component is want counts , right down to the wiring , which Mazda does, thats why they had the Mazda disected  .
Size means Sh-t -- its their stealing of others tech that has got them ahead so fast in so short period of time .

[Ice]

I'd be fairly surprised if all of the car companies weren't buying each others products and taking them apart...

[ajay]

I think some companies are simply too proud to do this and do things their own way . I can't imagine Honda or BMW doing so . Hyundai have their top engineers examine these tear downs . not some lower level engineer to pass information along .
Jils report said it all , pity I couldn't find it . It shows Hyundais dedication to constantly improve by taking the best from everyone else .