Topic: GM shafts Canadians after bailout; surprised ?

[johngenx]

It the cost to service the land is what brings the price up
As a small business owner I love  the HST
Also stupidity make people buy million dollar houses and cheap money

So, the HST added to the cost of servicing the land causes the price to rise from a Toronto average of $454K to a million dollars?

[Mike]

Yes - I'm citing homes over a million dollars (which is common in K/W). Nonetheless, it's crazy. 100K in pure cash out the door.

All the rebate provisions for HST are now done as well. All builders just build that HST into the price of new homes and guess who pays?

In an area such as K/W where even starter homes are now in the 400K range.....it hurts Sally Housecoat and Joe Meatball.

If a house is worth just over 400k, the impact is negligible, the HST is paid only on the excess. So a 410K house would be taxed only on 10k, for 1 500$, which is negligible considering the price of the house that is being bought.

That being said, call me an evil commie, but I have a lot of trouble feeling sympathy for someone with the means to buy a million-dollar home and who has to pay 100 000$ in tax (which probably will be paid with the mortgage over 20 or 30 years anyway). If they are sensible, they should have a combined income of maybe 400 000$, so that puts things into perspective. If they have much less but still buy a million-dollar home... then they're really living above their means, which is still possible for relatively rich people.

Although not quite $1000000 homes, I know plenty of people with 500K-700K homes who do not make 200 000K+ in combined income (and are doing just fine).  It is the realities of living in the GTA.  It's even worse in Vancouver.

[safristi]

WHERE'S THE BEEF...................Heifers Sales Tax .....can U say BONANZA......

[johngenx]

The average family income in Ontario is about $70K.  I feel that the HST exception on homes should be the average home price, or a bit more.  Maybe $500K.

People of average means are not buying million dollar homes.

As for Vancouver, they have a severe affordability problem compared to the rest of Canada.  Migration from other parts of BC and Canada have created supply problems thanks to limited land and travel corridors.  My answer to the high cost of living in Vancouver?  I stayed in Edmonton.

[safristi]

Hey NDPEE ER...when Layton lets Quebec GO...there will be 25% LESS LAND TO build on..............

[airbalancer]

It the cost to service the land is what brings the price up
As a small business owner I love  the HST
Also stupidity make people buy million dollar houses and cheap money

So, the HST added to the cost of servicing the land causes the price to rise from a Toronto average of $454K to a million dollars?

No, just the cost of the services, sewage plants, roads, schools etc drives the cost high land
Farm land is still pretty cheap

[Gardiner Westbound]

Yes - I'm citing homes over a million dollars (which is common in K/W). Nonetheless, it's crazy. 100K in pure cash out the door.

All the rebate provisions for HST are now done as well. All builders just build that HST into the price of new homes and guess who pays?

In an area such as K/W where even starter homes are now in the 400K range.....it hurts Sally Housecoat and Joe Meatball.

That just can't be!

McGuinty promised the business community would pass its tax savings back to consumers making the HST revenue neutral. We would wind up ahead because of all the new businesses it would bring to Ontario, which would increase employment and government revenue, especially with the freeze on civil service wages and benefits.

McGuinty wouldn't lie, would he?

[johngenx]

No, just the cost of the services, sewage plants, roads, schools etc drives the cost high land
Farm land is still pretty cheap

But, don't those services have to be built for all communities?  Why is the Waterloo housing so much more?  What is driving housing prices to a million dollars there?  In Vancouver, the reason even starter homes are super expensive is high demand coupled with low availability of new land.  What is the reason in Waterloo?

[johngenx]

I live in an expensive suburb.  The reason is because lots and houses are larger and built with higher end materials.  We have no land shortage, as Vancouver.  No, our community is "exclusive" thanks to a concerted effort to keep prices high.  My daughter is one of a small group in her school class that live in a detached home thanks to high prices and VERY high taxes.

Do I cry for the high income people buying million dollar and more homes?  No.  What I do work towards is more affordable housing for new/young families and keeping the property tax burden reasonable so seniors can stay longer.

[Vmango]

People buying million dollar homes here are still the "elite"...perhaps that was confused on my point. However, it is quite common for fairly normal sized two garage homes (2000sq ft - 2500sc ft) to be in the 400-700K range. Airbalancer is exactly right it's the cost of the services, sewage plants, roads, schools etc drives the cost of land. The city jacks up prices EVERY year.

The going rate on buy just pure lottage in KW right now is $4000 and front foot. To buy a 36' foot lot, which is the smallest size lot to build a double car garage on, you're looking at basically 150, 000K for just the lot........and you're generally getting no more than 100 feet deep and 8 feet from your neighbor.

There is very little land left in Waterloo. Kitchener has more but you're livin' on the outskirts of town.

I just don't like the HST because I think in many cases (as in housing) it's a tax on the rich, but also, it does start to affect "normal people" when it's an area with higher home prices.

[tpl]

I must point out that the HST ( as distinct from the abysmal Land Transfer Tax) only applies to NEW houses AND the whole idea of value added taxes is that they are neutral and are levied on everything.  Arguably there should not be that $400K exemption

Soooooooooooooo   buy a pre owned house that was built before  HST or GST on houses.

Now the Land Transfer Tax which is taxed by the HST IIRC  should be, if not abolished, lowered to the actual cost of a $15k a year clerk stamping some papers and putting them in a filing cabinet which is all it does. That would help affordability of cheaper houses a bit I think.


And to finish the rant.  If you insist on living in or near a popular big city then you must expect to pay a premium for land, its services and the building erected on it.

[safristi]

  where is this $15K a year CLERK you speak of.............try $50K with Defined Benefit,and all the perks.............

[Sival]

And to finish the rant.  If you insist on living in or near a popular big city then you must expect to pay a premium for land, its services and the building erected on it.

This. Oh yes, this.

Too often, people protest about how high prices of houses are in the city and they take as example what is basically a suburban bungalow in Toronto or Montréal... Well of course these houses would cost so much more, you're in the city, space is at a premium, if they didn't cost more, the cities would be full of them and then you'd have... you guessed it... a suburb! That's why, if you want to live in a city in an affordable housing, you buy a condo instead, which are much more numerous and make a lot more sense in an urban area. What you lose in size you win in proximity to all services around you and likely to your work as well.

[tpl]

And to finish the rant.  If you insist on living in or near a popular big city then you must expect to pay a premium for land, its services and the building erected on it.

This. Oh yes, this.

Too often, people protest about how high prices of houses are in the city and they take as example what is basically a suburban bungalow in Toronto or Montréal... Well of course these houses would cost so much more, you're in the city, space is at a premium, if they didn't cost more, the cities would be full of them and then you'd have... you guessed it... a suburb! That's why, if you want to live in a city in an affordable housing, you buy a condo instead, which are much more numerous and make a lot more sense in an urban area. What you lose in size you win in proximity to all services around you and likely to your work as well.

I first read this Sival and wondered if you were being either ironic or sarcastic...on 2nd reading I think you are serious.  Your are right. A condo or, where they exist, a co-op is right for a city. Density is high and you can walk to work or are in the area of high density urban transit.   In Toronto there are a couple of areas of old houses close in, within walk to work range but they tend to be expensive and have very high maintenance costs ( I know, I owned one) and it seems to be a Canadian thing...as soon as you have kids it has to be off to the 'burbs with a yard and a mini-van. Shudder.  FWIW we moved to a smallish city ( pop:118000) when I retired to suck money out of the city house and for mrs tpl to get a bigger garden.   near to but cheaper than KW mentioned earlier in this thread. If we had not found the right place in Guelph, KW was the next place to look.

[safristi]

  they wouldn't let you into CAMBRIDGE or OXFORD county... ...

[CatsEye68]

I suspect a lot of what is driving K/W prices are the RIM incomes. Those people make big bucks and want the latest and greatest McMansion they can get. I have no sympathy. If you can afford a palace, better expect to get taxed  accordingly.

[safristi]

Just drove by BOB's P(A)LACE.......I was hurried away with Vigor..... .................