Author Topic: Ethanol? (Read 1676 times)

sailor723 · « **on:** May 22, 2011, 05:59:54 pm »

We've just recently started to see 10% Ethanol in our fuel here. I've also noticed a recent decline in my mileage of about 1-1.5 l/100km. is this a result of E10?

rrocket · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2011, 06:03:16 pm »

Quote from: sailor723 on May 22, 2011, 05:59:54 pm

We've just recently started to see 10% Ethanol in our fuel here. I've also noticed a recent decline in my mileage of about 1-1.5 l/100km. is this a result of E10?

Absolutely. Ethanol contains fewer BTUs per liter than gasoline. Be glad it's not E85....you'd see a drop of 30% fuel mileage.

The usual decrease in economy for E10 is about 3%. On the upside, because of the E10, the octane of the fuel will go up about 2-3 points.

tpl · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2011, 06:29:25 pm »

For every fill-up some poor bugger in the 3rd world will get a bit closer to starvation...just a little bit.

sailor723 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2011, 07:34:54 pm »

Quote from: tpl on May 22, 2011, 06:29:25 pm

For every fill-up some poor bugger in the 3rd world will get a bit closer to starvation...just a little bit.

I know....seems like just about the biggest US farm lobby boondoggle in history to me.

sailor723 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2011, 07:45:24 pm »

I'm told that around here Regular now contains 10% Ethanol, Plus has 5% and Supreme is ethanol free. (That information came from Irving Oil). We are planning on having to switch the fuel dock at our yacht club to Supreme this year. Nobody is very happy about the extra costs but from what I can gather Ethanol is not very friendly to older marine engines or outboards and can actually dissolve the resins in built-in fibreglass fuel tanks of 1960's, 70's and early 80's vintage.

Gardiner Westbound · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2011, 09:13:36 pm »

All Ontario regular grade gasolines contain 10-percent ethanol, aka E10 gasohol, another green boondoggle. Ethanol is corrosive, dissolves water in the fuel system, separates from gasoline and has the shelf life of a tomato. BMW believes it dilutes motor oil prematurely aging it, a good reason to change oil on schedule. E10's lower energy content increases fuel consumption about 3-percent. Esso and Shell premium grade gasoline contains no ethanol somewhat offsetting the higher cost.

sailor723 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2011, 08:35:36 am »

Good discussion of the problems with ethanol in non-automotive uses here

http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml

maritime_storm · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2011, 09:21:31 am »

Quote from: Gardiner Westbound on May 22, 2011, 09:13:36 pm

All Ontario regular grade gasolines contain 10-percent ethanol, aka E10 gasohol, another green boondoggle. Ethanol is corrosive, dissolves water in the fuel system, separates from gasoline and has the shelf life of a tomato. BMW believes it dilutes motor oil prematurely aging it, a good reason to change oil on schedule. E10's lower energy content increases fuel consumption about 3-percent. Esso and Shell premium grade gasoline contains no ethanol somewhat offsetting the higher cost.

Their websites don't directly say that, here in NB most premium has ethanol in it, they are not required to use it, but it does raise octane levels and the refineries already have it on hand, it would only logically make sense for them to be using what's on hand to meeting their designated octane level. The stuff has it's bad(you mentioned all of it already) and good; it is a stronger solvent, cleaner burning, it produced from waste stock now rather corn as it once was. The new SN oils were desinged to offset the lubrication issues arising from E-10, that it now a mute point. The seperation issue concerns more marine equipment and people who store fuels for more than a couple of months without using a fuel stabilizer.

Esso;

Ethanol-blended gasoline
Ethanol-blended gasoline is currently available at participating Esso service stations in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario. Stations selling ethanol-blended gasoline have a label on the pump indicating the gasoline may contain up to 10 percent ethanol.

Shell;

http://www.shell.com/home/content/media/news_and_media_releases/archive/2009/iogen_canada_10062009.html

Iogen Corp; how it's made

http://www.iogen.ca/cellulosic_ethanol/what_is_ethanol/process.html

Who is using it

http://www.iogen.ca/partners/overview/index.html

NB Governemnts perpective;

www.gnb.ca/0085/pdf/ethanol%20faqs%20-%20english.pdf

HeliDriver · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2011, 11:13:46 am »

Just yesterday I saw this sticker on the pump at my local (Alberta) Shell:

"Bronze: 10% ethanol. Silver: 5% ethanol. V-Power: 0% ethanol."

I had heard this before, but yesterday was the first time I saw it in black and white on the pump.

Gardiner Westbound · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2011, 11:19:20 am »

Quote from: maritime_storm on May 23, 2011, 09:21:31 am

Their websites don't directly say that, here in NB most premium has ethanol in it, they are not required to use it, but it does raise octane levels and the refineries already have it on hand, it would only logically make sense for them to be using what's on hand to meeting their designated octane level. The stuff has it's bad(you mentioned all of it already) and good; it is a stronger solvent, cleaner burning, it produced from waste stock now rather corn as it once was. The new SN oils were desinged to offset the lubrication issues arising from E-10, that it now a mute point. The seperation issue concerns more marine equipment and people who store fuels for more than a couple of months without using a fuel stabilizer.

Esso;
Ethanol-blended gasoline
Ethanol-blended gasoline is currently available at participating Esso service stations in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario. Stations selling ethanol-blended gasoline have a label on the pump indicating the gasoline may contain up to 10 percent ethanol.

Shell;
http://www.shell.com/home/content/media/news_and_media_releases/archive/2009/iogen_canada_10062009.html

Ontario Shell stations have a sticker on premium pumps stating "Contains no ethanol."

Due to Shell discontinuing its EasyPay system I recently ordered Esso SpeedPass tags. The customer service person said Esso premium does not contain ethanol. Ethanol is really immoral, evil stuff. People in third world countries are starving so local politicians can claim they're "green," whatever that means. If there's no ethanol-free confirmation sticker on the pump I'll be back to Shell.

tpl · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2011, 11:25:46 am »

IIRC Ethanol raises octane and also helps to cool the charge of fuel in the cylinder. I wonder therefore if ethanol added to premium would give a little more help to these new 2 litre turbo's engines which I suspect run very high combustion chamber temps on full boost.

sailor723 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2011, 12:17:25 pm »

Quote from: HeliDriver on May 23, 2011, 11:13:46 am

Just yesterday I saw this sticker on the pump at my local (Alberta) Shell:

"Bronze: 10% ethanol. Silver: 5% ethanol. V-Power: 0% ethanol."

I had heard this before, but yesterday was the first time I saw it in black and white on the pump.

That matches what we've been told by the supplier to our seasonal fuel dock here in NB. If we want non-Ethanol gas our only option is to stock Supreme.

onearmed · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2011, 04:41:30 pm »

I find Esso still doesn't give me the mileage Shell premium does. I just filled up with Esso on my last tank and I didn't break 500km a tank before the light goes on. I got something like 482km/tank. For the last 6 months (through winter) I would always get atleast 500km and most recently (with the warmer weather) around 520km a tank with Shell. Even though these stats are approximate, the result are ALWAYS the same.

Edit: Added clarity (when my approximation is based on when my gas light goes on)

safristi · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2011, 04:45:25 pm »

Must be tha NITROGEN bubbles Shell crows about...same stuff as in yer "Fizzy" beer cans........seems to keep the
deposits" outta my COLON...Dr sez I won't need a ream out till Mid Sommer nights all hallows eve................

............V for Victory

my2cents · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2011, 05:04:25 pm »

I noticed in the U.S. premium is about 20 cents/gal more than regular - or just over 5 cents/liter. I checked gasbuddy for prices.

In Canada its about 12-13 cents /liter.

So it costs about 9.5% more to get 4% better fuel economy here?

safristi · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2011, 05:05:24 pm »

..aye laddy savings are never cheap......

wastin' good OCHTANE shood be illegal........

mmret · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2011, 05:25:36 pm »

The Ethanol thing is possibly the worst agriculture/energy policy known to man.

About 40% of US corn production is mandated to go towards ethanol production. The US is the Saudi Arabia of Corn (and food in general, really).
Corn prices are about double what they are last summer (not the result of the biofuels thing, which was going to happen anyways, but still...)

Corn is about 1/3rd as efficient (I think this is in terms of cost, but could be some other metric and cost is obviously volatile, will have to double check) to turn into ethanol as sugarcane is. But the US doesn't grow much sugarcane, and does grow a lot of corn.

They could import Brazilian sugarcane for much cheaper, but obviously that won't go down well with the farm lobby.

Meanwhile we have food riots in the middle east leading to political turmoil and higher oil prices (irony...); and surging inflation in China which has lead to a slew of administrative and monetary measures to try and cool things down. There is a real risk of a hard landing in China, which would be really freaking bad for the world economy.

We get complex subsidy and administrative control systems in the US leading to a boom-bust cycle in the ethanol industry.

We get crappier fuel economy and broken engines / emissions systems.

And in the third world they starve because 5 million bushels of corn is boondoggled away. Free market capitalists my ass.

Be a man, do the right thing, buy Shell V-Power.

tpl · « **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2011, 05:37:00 pm »

sailor723 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2011, 05:56:21 pm »

^

I have to say that the more I read about the subject the more I agree with the above posts.

I read somewhere today a report that suggested that it takes something like .6 of a gallon of fuel to produce a gallon of Ethanol.,,,,I'm not sure what the number is for a gallon of gasoline but I suspect it's a lot less.

Seeing as we have something in the order of 180 billion barrels of oil reserves in Canada ( something like a 240 year supply at present rates of consumption) you have to wonder why we are jumping on the ethanol bandwagon? It doesn't seem to make any economic sense never mind the moral issue of turning agricultural land over to motor fuel production.

RunsinLight · « **Reply #19 on:** May 23, 2011, 06:05:37 pm »

Since the price of gas spiked I started buying regular fuel. I've started wondering just how much more (or savings even) it really cost me to return to buying premium fuel with no ethanol.