Topic: Vibration at Highway Speed.

[Switz]

Last spring I purchased Toyo Extensa A/S (215/5-R17) for my Mazda 5.  Near the end of fall I noticed a bit of vibration occuring, but had to change to my winter rim/tires becuase of, well, you know.  I just put the Toyo's back on a week ago, rotating the rears to the front.  So far they have about 16,000km on them from last summer.  Now the vibration was felt in the steering wheel at speeds above 105km/hr and in my rear at lower speeds.  I took them back to Tirecraft in Lloydminster and they reballanced them.  Now, the vibration is reduced, but still there.  At 110km/hr the wheel will vibrate for about 15 seconds, then it is smooth for 15 seconds, then vibrates then smooth.

I have a feeling that since the vibration moved to the steering wheel this spring, that there is one bad tire now on the front.  Is it still an out -of - ballance issue, or something else?  Out of round?  Tread separation beginning?  How can I (or the tire shop) diagnose this further?  I'm assuming that the re-ballance was done correctly.  This is frustrating.

Any suggesions would be appreciated.

[mrthompson]

Is the tire shop using a Hunter GSP 9700 road force balancer?  If not, there may be one in your area.

http://www.gsp9700.com/pub/search/FindLocations_Canada.cfm

[jamie1]

Stock wheels or aftermarket?  As mrthompson pointed out, roadforce balance maybe in order. I've seen LOTS of problems with vibrations if cheap aftermarket wheels are used.

[safristi]

HUNTER GSP 9700...what pressure do they apply and in wot directions..........HERCULES needs ta know.........

 No spinning us onna answer eh!!!


 yeah HUNTERS are the fer shizzle of shakes peare and all that.......

[capriracer]

What you probably have is irregular wear, which is caused by mis-alignment and aggravated by insufficient inflation pressure and insufficient inflation practices.

So get your alignment checked.  But be aware that once irregular wear sets in, it may be difficult to wear the old pattern out.

My experience says that the published alignment tolerances are too wide.  Not the target value, but the allowable deviation from that value.  I think it ought to be half of what is published.

Put another way, the alignment should be within the inner half of the spec.

You should be aware that even vehicles that do not have a pull can be out of alignment.  There are settings where one out of spec condition is offset by another out of spec condition – typically camber vs toe. 

Also, many alignment techs think that if the factory did not make provisions to make adjustments for the alignment, then they can’t make an adjustment and will declare the vehicle “OK”.  This is totally wrong.

ALL alignment settings are adjustable, but it may require an eccentric bolt, some shims, etc.  A GOOD alignment tech will know what to do and the vehicle should leave a shop with ALL the alignment settings close to the nominal.

And - NO! - this is not covered by warranty.

[Switz]

Upon proofreading I noticed I missed a number in the tire size.  215/50r17.  Jeesh!

Thanks capriracer, but I don't think I have an alignment problem because the winter tires have worn uniformly and smooth.  The winter tires have two winters on them (aprox 35000km) and will be good for one more winter.  No vibration with them ever. No rebalancing either.

Also, the summers are on the factory alloy rims. When the tires came from the factory they had weights for balancing on the inside rim as well as ones glued further inside.  Now they are balanced with only weights on the inside.  Perhaps that's not taking into account irregularities from inside to outside.  I'll ask when I get back to the tire shop if they can do this too.

Does anyone know how much a tire has to be to be labeled "out of round"?  What are some numbers?

Also, I've heard about tread separation, but how is it determined?  Or do you have to wait until it comes right off?

Thanks again in advance

[blur911]

The Hunter road force balancer should be able to pick up whether there is radial force variation thing happening.  It's like having an out-of-round tire where the "spring rate" at a particular spot is different (possibly because of a improper component splice).  The tire may be round and balance up fine on a regular balancer, but put it on the road and it shakes.

[articsteve]

When the tires came from the factory they had weights for balancing on the inside rim as well as ones glued further inside.  Now they are balanced with only weights on the inside.

The weights need to be on both sides of the wheels.  Seems like your tire place is both lazy and cheap.  Find another place.  Don't bother with them.  They will just lie to you.

Alignment has very little to do with vibration.

[Angry Chicken]

When the tires came from the factory they had weights for balancing on the inside rim as well as ones glued further inside.  Now they are balanced with only weights on the inside.

The weights need to be on both sides of the wheels.  Seems like your tire place is both lazy and cheap.  Find another place.  Don't bother with them.  They will just lie to you.

Alignment has very little to do with vibration.

  FWIW, I agree on all counts.  My Mazda3 has developed a bit of a "nervousness" in the front wheels.  I guess you'd have to call it a vibration, but I would call it more of a "nobbly" feeling and this shortly after purchasing 4 brand new summer tires mounted on the OE rims.  The rims are true and not bent.

The Mazda3 uses the same underpinnings as the Mazda5 so my not-very-scientific thought is that they might be sensitive to proper balancing as a rule.  Two VW Passats that I owned were, too, and this was something that was acknowledged by the dealership.

So....good advice.  I'm probably going to get the tires rebalanced at a reputable garage who uses the latest technology.  The car uses stick-on weights, btw, so I don't know how that affects the argument of using weights on inside and outside.  I guess the rule should be that the weights are placed as close to the centreline of the rim as possible?

[blur911]

So....good advice.  I'm probably going to get the tires rebalanced at a reputable garage who uses the latest technology.  The car uses stick-on weights, btw, so I don't know how that affects the argument of using weights on inside and outside.  I guess the rule should be that the weights are placed as close to the centreline of the rim as possible?

A wheel balancer will tell you exactly where to put the weight, including inside or outside.  If you have expensive alloys then often you don't want weights on the outside marking your wheels.  With the high offset that most wheels have today you can often put them on the inside of the wheel and still have them on the outer half of the rim. 

[Switz]

One can't attach weights to the outside of the Mazda factory alloy rims.  So if you want weight on the outside the only choice is to glue some inside the rim near the outisde.  Don't know why they do this.  Appearance to me come second, practicality first.

Hopefully I am able to make it back to the tire shop this week.  I'll keep you all posted.

[articsteve]

So if you want weight on the outside the only choice is to glue some inside the rim near the outisde

And there in lies your problem.  Your tire shop failed to reinstall those stick on weights.  There are expensive and time consuming compared to the bang on type.

[Switz]

So back to the tire shop yesterday.  They pulled the tires off and none were balanced perfectly.  So this time they used the sticky weights for the outside and hammer-on ones for the inside.  It took more than one try to balance each wheel.  Don't know why.  The technician seemed to know what he was doing, although he said that one weight on the inside would have been fine.  He couldn't explain, however, why the tires were out of balance from just 10 days ago.

Anyhow, to the sad ending of my story.  One of the tires did show movement when on the spin balancer.  Upon closer viewing, both the technician and I could see that the rim (and it was one of the front tires) was wobbling ever so slightly.  Slightly bent rim.  Not suprised it caused the vibration in the steering wheel this spring when I rotated the rears to the front.  So the technician put the rim back on the rear so that I wouldn't feel the vibration in the steering wheel, but I can feel a slight vibration in my seat.  Crap.

It's not so bad that I can't live with it for a while. I guess I'll have to price out a new or used (I hate to go used and get another bent rim) factory rim.  Or, maybe this is my time to get all new rims.  Not sure what to do yet.  16" rims are the smallest that will fit over the brakes in my Mazda 5.  Maybe I'll get new 16" rims and go for a slightly taller sidewall to cusions the rim from another bend.  Dunno yet.

[articsteve]

He couldn't explain, however, why the tires were out of balance from just 10 days ago.

Because they did a p*ss poor job the first time.  This is not a rare occurrence at tire shops.  You will never ever find a tire shop that will admit either that their balancer sucks or their operator was less than stellar.  It always a rare "mystery".

Upon closer viewing, both the technician and I could see that the rim (and it was one of the front tires) was wobbling ever so slightly.

This is more common than ppl think.  If you drove 20 different cars a month you would probably find that your car is average for vibration.