Topic: Fusion Sport

[347BLKCAT]

I'm interested in buying a 2010 Fusion Sport and have read many positive write ups in various magazines and publications.   The only exception seems to be Phil Edmonston author of LemonAid.   Not sure how Consumer Reports & JD Powers recommends the Fusion yet LemonAid more or less says stay away.  Reliability is a big consideration as I'm sure it is with most people.
I would be very interested to get some feed back from folks here that own one or know someone that does.
Thanks! 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I'm interested in buying a 2010 Fusion Sport and have read many positive write ups in various magazines and publications.   The only exception seems to be Phil Edmonston author of LemonAid.   Not sure how Consumer Reports & JD Powers recommends the Fusion yet LemonAid more or less says stay away.  Reliability is a big consideration as I'm sure it is with most people.
I would be very interested to get some feed back from folks here that own one or know someone that does.
Thanks! 

Phil doesn't have nearly the database that either CR or JD Powers have. His basic assumption is that all cars are crap and vary only by degree. The last time I looked through one of his books, it seemed to have quite a few errors, incorrect engines for a given model, reviews based on previous versions of the model in question, that sort of thing. His book is still fairly interesting, but I'd take it with a grain of salt.

[PJungnitsch]

His basic assumption is that all cars are crap and vary only by degree.

Just about sums it up. He's a car reviewer that hates cars, which skews his understanding.

The best reliability results for new stuff is probably True Delta, which gives the Fusion a very good rating:

http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability.php?stage=powertrains&brand=Ford&modelCode=98&session_code=

[articsteve]

Google "Ford Fusion transmission problems"  and find out for yourself. They were having big troubles with them and are still in the denial mode.

It's common knowledge among dealers.   BTW, Ford is sh*t to their dealers on warranty repairs.  Very strict.  It's all done by real time video from the service department and the service manager has nil discretion.

Example:  http://forums.automobilemag.com/70/7761889/ford/2010-ford-fusion-transmission/index.html

[Sir Osis of Liver]

^ Right. You should see what you get when you Google ES350 sudden acceleration!

Transmission issues aren't even on the radar as far as Consumer Reports surveys are concerned.

[articsteve]

Transmission issues aren't even on the radar as far as Consumer Reports surveys are concerned

Well you base your car knowledge on Consumer Reports little dots and I base my knowledge on buying and selling cars for a living where just a few bad units can ruin your month.

In 2010 Ford went from the Aisin tranny to the Ford/GM joint transmission venture one of which is the 6F35 which is what went into the Fusion as a test mule.  Ford is throwing reflashes at it, then valve bodies, then replacement if owners are lucky enough to have it totally grenade.  The upside is that's it one of these trannys with lifetime fluid. 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Transmission issues aren't even on the radar as far as Consumer Reports surveys are concerned

Well you base your car knowledge on Consumer Reports little dots and I base my knowledge on buying and selling cars for a living where just a few bad units can ruin your month.

In 2010 Ford went from the Aisin tranny to the Ford/GM joint transmission venture one of which is the 6F35 which is what went into the Fusion as a test mule.  Ford is throwing reflashes at it, then valve bodies, then replacement if owners are lucky enough to have it totally grenade.  The upside is that's it one of these trannys with lifetime fluid. 

It's called data, and if the problem was nearly as widespread as you suggest, it would show up in the surveys.

[articsteve]

CR is all generalized sh*t.

Here is a sample of their current baloney:

 Despite recent safety recalls, Toyota models, including those from Scion and Lexus, remained among the most reliable and earned top scores in five vehicle categories. Only the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS and the new Lexus IS 250 convertible are below average. The redesigned 2010 Toyota Prius, hurt by antilock brake problems on early vehicles, scored only average. That is quite a drop from previous years. (We've reinstated our recommendations for eight Toyota models that had problems with sticking accelerator pedals.)

Well the funny thing is that none of the Toyota pedals actually stuck.  So there was a fault that actually never existed.  The 2010 Prius had a reflash on the first out the door.  No hardware change.  The 2010 is the most trouble free Prius of any year mechanically and the most trouble free of any Toyota.  But of course CR pegs it as average.

CR is for toasters.  If you base your car purchase on CR you're a fool.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

CR is all generalized sh*t.

Here is a sample of their current baloney:

 Despite recent safety recalls, Toyota models, including those from Scion and Lexus, remained among the most reliable and earned top scores in five vehicle categories. Only the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS and the new Lexus IS 250 convertible are below average. The redesigned 2010 Toyota Prius, hurt by antilock brake problems on early vehicles, scored only average. That is quite a drop from previous years. (We've reinstated our recommendations for eight Toyota models that had problems with sticking accelerator pedals.)

Well the funny thing is that none of the Toyota pedals actually stuck.  So there was a fault that actually never existed.  The 2010 Prius had a reflash on the first out the door.  No hardware change.  The 2010 is the most trouble free Prius of any year mechanically and the most trouble free of any Toyota.  But of course CR pegs it as average.

CR is for toasters.  If you base your car purchase on CR you're a fool.

Yes. Obviously basing car purchasing decisions on well respected independent consumer research would be a foolish thing to do.  Why not just ask you friendly neighbourhood car salesman, he'll set you straight. 

[Erik]

CR is all generalized sh*t.

Here is a sample of their current baloney:

 Despite recent safety recalls, Toyota models, including those from Scion and Lexus, remained among the most reliable and earned top scores in five vehicle categories. Only the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS and the new Lexus IS 250 convertible are below average. The redesigned 2010 Toyota Prius, hurt by antilock brake problems on early vehicles, scored only average. That is quite a drop from previous years. (We've reinstated our recommendations for eight Toyota models that had problems with sticking accelerator pedals.)

Well the funny thing is that none of the Toyota pedals actually stuck.  So there was a fault that actually never existed.  The 2010 Prius had a reflash on the first out the door.  No hardware change.  The 2010 is the most trouble free Prius of any year mechanically and the most trouble free of any Toyota.  But of course CR pegs it as average.

CR is for toasters.  If you base your car purchase on CR you're a fool.

Yes. Obviously basing car purchasing decisions on well respected independent consumer research would be a foolish thing to do.  Why not just ask you friendly neighbourhood car salesman, he'll set you straight. 

 

[TopGun]

.....
CR is for toasters.  If you base your car purchase on CR you're a fool.

Now I realize that I'm a fool given the comments I've made on this board...so I'm hoping y'all can help me out.  So now that CR doesn't have Toyota as the be-all-end-all it I SHOULDN'T look at...but I SHOULD have before...OK.

Reliability is so good now, that the difference between cars is pretty minimal.  What's "bad" reliability?  An extra trip to the stealership once a year?  Big deal.  Pick the car you want based on how it drives, the features it has...and how it makes you feel. 

If you're looking for an appliance, well...then consult the CR or TrueDeltas of the world.

[Ice]

I've found Consumer Reports to be a fairly good way to establish a baseline on what vehicles are typically going to be more reliable and which are going to be less. Is it perfect? Probably not. Doesn't mean that it should be dismissed out of hand. Provided that they continue the way they do, CR will be a factor in any future decisions.

It's also a good idea to be cognizant of other factors. The Corolla on paper is one of the more reliable models out there (the Fusion BTW is also up there) and in practice my Corolla has been perfectly reliable in terms of getting me from point A to B without stopping at any point. Some of the smaller details are where my car hasn't been the greatest... mostly in the rattle department. Someone on here was telling me that Ford was doing a pretty good job of eliminating the rattles on their cars but I have no idea if that's true and CR would never have that in a report.

[347BLKCAT]

From what I understand the 2.3 and 3.0 use a 6F35 Six Speed while the 3.5 has a Aisin AWTF-80 SC Six Speed.   Is that correct and if so does the AWTF-80 have any major issues? 

[PJungnitsch]

If it is a new problem then CR can miss it as (from what I understand) their results for the 2010 model year are based on surveys from back in April 2010. So there isn't much time for issues to crop up.
Something that Karesh dwells on at length and indeed True Delta will usually catch those types of immediate issues better.
But, as he points out, even models with a lot of problems will usually have quite a few owners who will have none at all:


Among early 2011s, we now have full results for the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Sorento. Though in its first model year, the thoroughly redesigned Sonata has been better than average. This is not a given for Hyundai—the Genesis sedan with tech package and the Genesis Coupe both had glitchy first years. The Sorento has been about average so far.

We’ll have full results for a few more 2011s with the next update, in February. Early data on the Ford Fiesta is not good.

TrueDelta also has updated “nada-odds” and “lemon-odds” stats. These report the percentage of cars with no repairs and the percentage with 3+ repair trips in the past year, respectively. Among the covered 2010s, the Aud Q5 and Hyundai Genesis Coupe were the most likely to require repairs, and by a substantial margin. Only 35 percent of Q5 owners and 42 percent of Gen Coupe owners reported no repairs. The Jaguar XF would likely join them t the bottom if we’d had enough responses for it.

Or is the glass one-third full? Even with the worst 2010 (by this stat), your odds of a repair-free car were better than one in three. Look at much older cars, and even with the worst (the 2001 Volvo S60 and V70) your chances of a repair-free car are about one in four. This explains why, whenever a model gets a poor reliability rating, plenty of owners can honestly claim they’ve had no problems. On the other hand, with the most reliable models (Toyota Prius, Toyota Yaris, Honda Insight, Honda Fit, Honda CR-V) your chances of a repair-free car are about nine in ten.

Only among the least reliable cars (generally 8+ years old and European) are your odds of 3+ repair trips in a year greater than one in ten.

http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?session_code=

[Sir Osis of Liver]

If it is a new problem then CR can miss it as (from what I understand) their results for the 2010 model year are based on surveys from back in April 2010. So there isn't much time for issues to crop up.
Something that Karesh dwells on at length and indeed True Delta will usually catch those types of immediate issues better.
But, as he points out, even models with a lot of problems will usually have quite a few owners who will have none at all:


Among early 2011s, we now have full results for the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Sorento. Though in its first model year, the thoroughly redesigned Sonata has been better than average. This is not a given for Hyundai—the Genesis sedan with tech package and the Genesis Coupe both had glitchy first years. The Sorento has been about average so far.

We’ll have full results for a few more 2011s with the next update, in February. Early data on the Ford Fiesta is not good.

TrueDelta also has updated “nada-odds” and “lemon-odds” stats. These report the percentage of cars with no repairs and the percentage with 3+ repair trips in the past year, respectively. Among the covered 2010s, the Aud Q5 and Hyundai Genesis Coupe were the most likely to require repairs, and by a substantial margin. Only 35 percent of Q5 owners and 42 percent of Gen Coupe owners reported no repairs. The Jaguar XF would likely join them t the bottom if we’d had enough responses for it.

Or is the glass one-third full? Even with the worst 2010 (by this stat), your odds of a repair-free car were better than one in three. Look at much older cars, and even with the worst (the 2001 Volvo S60 and V70) your chances of a repair-free car are about one in four. This explains why, whenever a model gets a poor reliability rating, plenty of owners can honestly claim they’ve had no problems. On the other hand, with the most reliable models (Toyota Prius, Toyota Yaris, Honda Insight, Honda Fit, Honda CR-V) your chances of a repair-free car are about nine in ten.

Only among the least reliable cars (generally 8+ years old and European) are your odds of 3+ repair trips in a year greater than one in ten.

http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?session_code=

I think TrueDelta have basically the right idea as far as how they go about compiling data. The only issue I have is that typically their sample size is too small. For example, one model year's results for the F150 were based on 9 samples. I question whether that's a representative sample out of the ~500k sold that year.

More often than not, the various consumer surveying organizations agree on which cars are reliable and which aren't.

[Erik]

If it is a new problem then CR can miss it as (from what I understand) their results for the 2010 model year are based on surveys from back in April 2010. So there isn't much time for issues to crop up.
Something that Karesh dwells on at length and indeed True Delta will usually catch those types of immediate issues better.
But, as he points out, even models with a lot of problems will usually have quite a few owners who will have none at all:


Among early 2011s, we now have full results for the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Sorento. Though in its first model year, the thoroughly redesigned Sonata has been better than average. This is not a given for Hyundai—the Genesis sedan with tech package and the Genesis Coupe both had glitchy first years. The Sorento has been about average so far.

We’ll have full results for a few more 2011s with the next update, in February. Early data on the Ford Fiesta is not good.

TrueDelta also has updated “nada-odds” and “lemon-odds” stats. These report the percentage of cars with no repairs and the percentage with 3+ repair trips in the past year, respectively. Among the covered 2010s, the Aud Q5 and Hyundai Genesis Coupe were the most likely to require repairs, and by a substantial margin. Only 35 percent of Q5 owners and 42 percent of Gen Coupe owners reported no repairs. The Jaguar XF would likely join them t the bottom if we’d had enough responses for it.

Or is the glass one-third full? Even with the worst 2010 (by this stat), your odds of a repair-free car were better than one in three. Look at much older cars, and even with the worst (the 2001 Volvo S60 and V70) your chances of a repair-free car are about one in four. This explains why, whenever a model gets a poor reliability rating, plenty of owners can honestly claim they’ve had no problems. On the other hand, with the most reliable models (Toyota Prius, Toyota Yaris, Honda Insight, Honda Fit, Honda CR-V) your chances of a repair-free car are about nine in ten.

Only among the least reliable cars (generally 8+ years old and European) are your odds of 3+ repair trips in a year greater than one in ten.

http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?session_code=

Excellent information! Thanks.

[richink]

Look at much older cars, and even with the worst (the 2001 Volvo S60 and V70) your chances of a repair-free car are about one in four.

You gotta love CR, Lemon-Aid, etc they have never really liked Volvo's but I do have to make my point about S60/V70 considering there is next to no difference between 2001 & 2004 models.

Here is the grand total parts list so far after 7.5 years / 235,000 km in my S60:

- multiple filter changes (oil, cabin, air)
- 1 set of summer tires
- 2 sets of wiper blades
- 2 sets of brake pads
- 1 set of rotors
- 1 set of plugs
- 2 wheel bearings (just did those)
- 1 fuel filter
- 1 exhaust hanger
- 1 glitchy climate control module, changed after 1 month when new, no issues since
- 1 timing belt & water pump
- repaired glitchy starter motor wire

It's never seen the backside of a hook. If that isn't dead stick reliable I don't know what is. I'm almost glad to spend money on that car considering that the "repairs" to it thus far have been so trivial.

Not sure how much stock to put in long term reliability reports, I think there is a good portion of the score that could be related to driving styles and maintenance.

[Ice]

The long term reports give you a ballpark figure from which to work from. A car well below average is more likely to cause you grief than one above average. That's not to say that a car rated below average won't have a well above average experience for person X and vice versa.

On the whole... cars are rated as being far more reliable these days than they used to be. So a car below average now is still better than perhaps the above average car 15 years ago. It's statistics and you can't do it with just one example as there are always outliers.

[rrocket]

Look at much older cars, and even with the worst (the 2001 Volvo S60 and V70) your chances of a repair-free car are about one in four.

You gotta love CR, Lemon-Aid, etc they have never really liked Volvo's but I do have to make my point about S60/V70 considering there is next to no difference between 2001 & 2004 models.

Here is the grand total parts list so far after 7.5 years / 235,000 km in my S60:

- multiple filter changes (oil, cabin, air)
- 1 set of summer tires
- 2 sets of wiper blades
- 2 sets of brake pads
- 1 set of rotors
- 1 set of plugs
- 2 wheel bearings (just did those)
- 1 fuel filter
- 1 exhaust hanger
- 1 glitchy climate control module, changed after 1 month when new, no issues since
- 1 timing belt & water pump
- repaired glitchy starter motor wire

It's never seen the backside of a hook. If that isn't dead stick reliable I don't know what is. I'm almost glad to spend money on that car considering that the "repairs" to it thus far have been so trivial.

Not sure how much stock to put in long term reliability reports, I think there is a good portion of the score that could be related to driving styles and maintenance.

My brother's experience with his Volvo was the opposite of yours.  It was rare when it wasn't in for repairs.