Topic: Honda holds commanding lead on Forbes.com's worst car flops of 2010

[Schmengie]

The Acura ZDX and Honda's Crosstour, Element and Insight just made Forbes.com's list of the Worst Car Flops of 2010. Pretty amazing for a company that just a few years ago sold everything it made just because it was Honda.

http://autos.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Autos/20101207/cars-that-flopped-in-2010-101207/

[Mitlov]

The Element isn't a "flop"--it's a long-in-the-tooth model that's finally being phased out, and it did well for a number of years before sales started to peter out.

The Insight, and its close relative the CR-Z, are both swings and misses (at least outside of the Japanese market).  Nobody disagrees there.  But it happens to every company some time or other.

The CrossTour and ZDX haven't been great successes, but luckily not much R&D was spent on them.  Throw a hatchback tailgate and a Pilot drivetrain in an Accord and you have the CrossTour; Sleek-ify an MDX and you get a ZDX.  I suspect a lot more money was lost on the aborted NSX project. 

Basically--all the flops have been niche vehicles.  Their main products--Fit, Civic, Accord, Odyssey, TL, MDX, etc--are good vehicles that are doing well.

Now they just need an S2000 successor and an NSX successor...

[TopGun]

....
Basically--all the flops have been niche vehicles.  Their main products--Fit, Civic, Accord, Odyssey, TL, MDX, etc--are good vehicles that are doing well.
.....

I wouldn't call the TL a success Mitlov.

Also, with the exception of the Odyssey, all of the new Honda offerings have been flops - Insight, CR-Z, CrossTour, ZDX.

Where is the innovation that used to be based on excellent engineering?

[rrocket]

....
Basically--all the flops have been niche vehicles.  Their main products--Fit, Civic, Accord, Odyssey, TL, MDX, etc--are good vehicles that are doing well.
.....

I wouldn't call the TL a success Mitlov.

Also, with the exception of the Odyssey, all of the new Honda offerings have been flops - Insight, CR-Z, CrossTour, ZDX.

Where is the innovation that used to be based on excellent engineering?

How many RX-8 were sold this year again??   

Really?  It sells almost on par with the Audi A series, sells more than the Passat CC, sells on par with the Lexus IS series etc and outsells the Lincoln...and last year outsold the Cadillac CTS range in several of the months! Not to mention (IIRC) the TL was Acuras number one selling vehicle..even edging out the MDX.  What exactly would you judge a success in the segment if the TL doesn't meet it??

[Sir Osis of Liver]

....
Basically--all the flops have been niche vehicles.  Their main products--Fit, Civic, Accord, Odyssey, TL, MDX, etc--are good vehicles that are doing well.
.....

I wouldn't call the TL a success Mitlov.

Also, with the exception of the Odyssey, all of the new Honda offerings have been flops - Insight, CR-Z, CrossTour, ZDX.

Where is the innovation that used to be based on excellent engineering?

How many RX-8 were sold this year again??   

Really?  It sells almost on par with the Audi A series, sells more than the Passat CC, sells on par with the Lexus IS series etc and outsells the Lincoln...and last year outsold the Cadillac CTS range in several of the months! Not to mention (IIRC) the TL was Acuras number one selling vehicle..even edging out the MDX.  What exactly would you judge a success in the segment if the TL doesn't meet it??

3 series & Infinity G.

[Shnak]

The TL doesn't compete against the 3-series or the G, but more against the 5-series and Infiniti M, in size at least. And it's doing very well against both of those, selling slightly better than the 5-series and more than doubling the Infiniti M.

[TopGun]

How many RX-8 were sold this year again??   

9 people must have got a great deal or been temporarily insane.

Really?  It sells almost on par with the Audi A series, sells more than the Passat CC, sells on par with the Lexus IS series etc and outsells the Lincoln...and last year outsold the Cadillac CTS range in several of the months! Not to mention (IIRC) the TL was Acuras number one selling vehicle..even edging out the MDX.  What exactly would you judge a success in the segment if the TL doesn't meet it??

Given you've picked out only the TL, then I'll assume you agree with my other comments.

The Audi A4 sells at twice the rate the TL does.  I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from.  These seem to fit what I see on the road:

11 months 2010 (Posted by SirA)
3 Series - 12,782
MDX - 5,544
Audi A4 - 4,996
Infiniti G - 4,081 (coupe and sedan)
CTS - 2,743
TL - 2,615
Lincoln - 2,573 (all cars)
5 Series - 2,083
Infiniti M - 507

You guys are nuts if you think a TL competes with 5 Series in anything other than size.  I've always seen the TL (and the G) as being 3 series competitors that try and offer a larger car and more features for similar $$.  If you'd like to compare the TL to two other sales losers like the M and the entire Lincoln line up...then I think you're proving my point.

[Shnak]

How many RX-8 were sold this year again??   

9 people must have got a great deal or been temporarily insane.

Really?  It sells almost on par with the Audi A series, sells more than the Passat CC, sells on par with the Lexus IS series etc and outsells the Lincoln...and last year outsold the Cadillac CTS range in several of the months! Not to mention (IIRC) the TL was Acuras number one selling vehicle..even edging out the MDX.  What exactly would you judge a success in the segment if the TL doesn't meet it??

Given you've picked out only the TL, then I'll assume you agree with my other comments.

The Audi A4 sells at twice the rate the TL does.  I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from.  These seem to fit what I see on the road:

11 months 2010 (Posted by SirA)
3 Series - 12,782
MDX - 5,544
Audi A4 - 4,996
Infiniti G - 4,081 (coupe and sedan)
CTS - 2,743
TL - 2,615
Lincoln - 2,573 (all cars)
5 Series - 2,083
Infiniti M - 507

You guys are nuts if you think a TL competes with 5 Series in anything other than size.  I've always seen the TL (and the G) as being 3 series competitors that try and offer a larger car and more features for similar $$.  If you'd like to compare the TL to two other sales losers like the M and the entire Lincoln line up...then I think you're proving my point.

The TL competes against the 5-series and Infiniti M, no matter what you think... The primary thing that is used to compare vehicles to each other is size... the TL is very similar to the 5-series and Infiniti M in size. The only real difference is asking price, and Acura clearly wants to offer more than those two for less money. Sure, some might look at a TL and figure they can get the much smaller 3-series or G for similar money, but you're also getting a less substantive vehicle.

And btw, you listed the pretty much useless canadian sales, here are the sales numbers from the states, where it actually matters.

11 months 2010
3 Series - 90,843
Infiniti G - 51,070
Lincoln - 43,921 (all cars)
MDX - 41,323
CTS - 40,485
Audi A4 -  31,159
5 Series - 34,443
TL - 30,774
Infiniti M - 12,877

The TL isn't a failure by any measure... it's very competitive with the A4 and the 5-series, outsells the Infiniti M by a factor of 2.5, and isn't far beind the much-loved CTS and all the Lincoln cars combined. Oh, and it's Acura's second-best selling vehicle after the MDX. For a vehicle mostly based on the Accord with a huge price markup on it, I'm sure Acura's pleased with the money they're making selling their TL's.

[TopGun]

The TL competes against the 5-series and Infiniti M, no matter what you think... The primary thing that is used to compare vehicles to each other is size... the TL is very similar to the 5-series and Infiniti M in size. The only real difference is asking price,

The only real difference is the asking price?  That is the only difference that matters.

People will compare all kinds of elements, yet at the end of the day they'll make an evaluation of what they are getting for X dollars.  If a loaded up 5 series is 50% more than a TL, then they're not going to be cross-shopped other than with the hope they win the lottery to they can get the 5.

Me thinks that if you look at what the TL sold at in its previous generation, Acura would be a lot happier.

Sorry, didn't think Canadian sales don't matter.

[Shnak]

The TL competes against the 5-series and Infiniti M, no matter what you think... The primary thing that is used to compare vehicles to each other is size... the TL is very similar to the 5-series and Infiniti M in size. The only real difference is asking price,

The only real difference is the asking price?  That is the only difference that matters.

People will compare all kinds of elements, yet at the end of the day they'll make an evaluation of what they are getting for X dollars.  If a loaded up 5 series is 50% more than a TL, then they're not going to be cross-shopped other than with the hope they win the lottery to they can get the 5.

Me thinks that if you look at what the TL sold at in its previous generation, Acura would be a lot happier.

Sorry, didn't think Canadian sales don't matter.

Canadian sales are a drop in the bucket and don't matter, especially with these types of cars. We matter with small/inexpensive cars, that's about it.

And most people look at the size of a vehicle first, they want the space, comfort, etc. Then, look at the price and decide if the price difference is worth it or not. Shopping only on price is fine for certain people, but for those who actually need to carry people around, space matters. It's probably the #1 attribute in car shopping.

[Mitlov]

....
Basically--all the flops have been niche vehicles.  Their main products--Fit, Civic, Accord, Odyssey, TL, MDX, etc--are good vehicles that are doing well.
.....

I wouldn't call the TL a success Mitlov.

Others already addressed the market success thing.  I'd also argue it's a mechanical success, because a TL SH-AWD 6MT offers roughly comparable performance to a 335xi (bigger, true, but more advanced AWD system) for about 80% of the price (assuming similar amenities).

The only area where the TL completely flopped was styling, and that's as subjective as subjective can be.

Also, with the exception of the Odyssey, all of the new Honda offerings have been flops - Insight, CR-Z, CrossTour, ZDX.

New models in 2008, 2009 and 2010 (not just facelifts):

Accord (sedan and coupe)--success
Fit--success
Odyssey--success
TL--success
CR-Z--failure
Insight--failure
CrossTour--failure
ZDX--failure

We have four successful bread-and-butter models and four failed niche models.  They admittedly need to do fewer niche models but put more love and thought into each one, but overall, it's hardly a picture of a company that's failing in everything they try.

Where is the innovation that used to be based on excellent engineering?

First and foremost: torque-vectoring AWD, which is now sweeping the luxury brands (BMW, Audi, Saab), was an Acura innovation in 2005 (on the RL), if I recall correctly.

Name another inexpensive piston-driven performance car that can comfortably rev to 8000 rpm.  The next car that I'm aware of that can do this is the M3, which is more than twice the price of my Si.

They've got some pretty sophisticated cylinder deactivation on the Odyssey.  They're not the only company doing that, but my understanding is that the Odyssey's system works pretty seamlessly.

The Fit magic seat.  Hell, everything about how that car is packaged.  Not since I watched Dr. Who have I seen something that's so much bigger on the inside than the outside.

Their manual-transmissions (which are still arguably the best-shifting on the market) may not be "innovation," but they're sure as hell good engineering.

I'm sure if I scratched my head I could think of more.  But I must emphasize that you don't have to invent an all-new technology (like VTEC) every three years to have "good engineering."

[Sir Osis of Liver]

The TL competes against the 5-series and Infiniti M, no matter what you think... The primary thing that is used to compare vehicles to each other is size... the TL is very similar to the 5-series and Infiniti M in size. The only real difference is asking price,

I was going to buy a base Explorer ($37499), but got a Range Rover ($94290) instead. They're about the same size, the only difference is price after all.

I'm not sure about elsewhere, but the TL has $6500 on the hood here, I'd imagine there is still room for negotiation beyond that.

Mitlov:

A lot of people like the Honda shifter feel, I'm fairly ambivalent to them. I dunno, I guess I prefer more mechanical feedback to a shifter.

The 5.0 in the Mustang can't quite hit 8k, but it's redline is 7000, and the rev limiter cuts in around 7500.

That magic seat in the Fit is brilliant packaging, but really isn't that great to actually sit on, so it depends on usage.

[Guy]

As far as the ZDX is concerned, selling only a handfull and slapping $12K on the hood confirms the flop status in my book. Big car on the outside, small inside. Who would want that?

[Schmengie]

 I just find it unbelievable that so many Honda models are on this list. Honda used to be famous for building high-quality, brilliantly engineered small cars that were more fun to drive than just about anyhing else in their price range, now they're just another car company trying to be all things to all people. That didn't work for GM and it's obviously not working very well for Honda.

 If these vehicles had sold in the numbers Honda intended they would be far more mainstream than they are. Simply because they failed to sell doesn't qualify them as niche vehicles IMHO. They are market failures, nothing else.

[Mitlov]

I just find it unbelievable that so many Honda models are on this list. Honda used to be famous for building high-quality, brilliantly engineered small cars that were more fun to drive than just about anyhing else in their price range, now they're just another car company trying to be all things to all people. That didn't work for GM and it's obviously not working very well for Honda.

 If these vehicles had sold in the numbers Honda intended they would be far more mainstream than they are. Simply because they failed to sell doesn't qualify them as niche vehicles IMHO. They are market failures, nothing else.

Coupe-crossovers are definitely a niche--that goes for both the CrossTour and the ZDX.  And a two-seat sporty hybrid?  How much more niche can you get without throwing in pontoons and laser guns?

The Insight is the only one that arguably isn't a niche, and I'd argue that eco-cars like the Prius, Volt, and Insight are still niche cars, though they're getting pretty close to mainstream.

[Shnak]

I think that this also shows that Honda is still trying to come up with new ideas... it's easy to not flop when you play it as safe as can be... look at Toyota, when's the last time they came out with something truly different? The FJ Cruiser, maybe? And even then, it was Toyota's version of the H3, hardly different.

[Mitlov]

I think that this also shows that Honda is still trying to come up with new ideas... it's easy to not flop when you play it as safe as can be... look at Toyota, when's the last time they came out with something truly different? The FJ Cruiser, maybe? And even then, it was Toyota's version of the H3, hardly different.

Okay, as compared to other brands?  When is the last time Hyundai or Kia successfully invented a new genre?  When is the last time they tried?

It's extremely rare for ANY brand to successfully start a new genre.  The Prius is the only recent example in years that's been a resounding success on that front IMO.

[Mike]

I think that this also shows that Honda is still trying to come up with new ideas... it's easy to not flop when you play it as safe as can be... look at Toyota, when's the last time they came out with something truly different? The FJ Cruiser, maybe? And even then, it was Toyota's version of the H3, hardly different.

Okay, as compared to other brands?  When is the last time Hyundai or Kia successfully invented a new genre?  When is the last time they tried?

It's extremely rare for ANY brand to successfully start a new genre.  The Prius is the only recent example in years that's been a resounding success on that front IMO.

New Slogan for Toyota - "Toyota Prius....Doing what the Magicwagon did in 1984"

[Shnak]

I think that this also shows that Honda is still trying to come up with new ideas... it's easy to not flop when you play it as safe as can be... look at Toyota, when's the last time they came out with something truly different? The FJ Cruiser, maybe? And even then, it was Toyota's version of the H3, hardly different.

Okay, as compared to other brands?  When is the last time Hyundai or Kia successfully invented a new genre?  When is the last time they tried?

It's extremely rare for ANY brand to successfully start a new genre.  The Prius is the only recent example in years that's been a resounding success on that front IMO.

The Soul was pretty damn unique when it came out, nothing looked like it, and it's been selling pretty well. Same could be said with the Rondo. Its only direct competitors 3 years after its launch is still only the Mazda5 and Matrix. Who else than Hyundai sells a low-$20k RWD coupe? The Veloster is coming too.

And where have I said you need to start a new genre? I was praising Honda for trying different things, instead of sticking to tried and true formulas out there. Sure, Toyota has the Prius, but Honda's Insight came out before it. But Toyota perfected the concept, no doubt about it.

It's easy to fail when you try different things, which is why Honda has failed the most in recent years. Having introduced the Ridgeline, Element, ZDX, CR-Z, CrossTour and the new Insight in the last 5-6 years, not many carmakers have tried more than Honda to introduce new and different types of vehicles in the same period.

[Shnak]

I think that this also shows that Honda is still trying to come up with new ideas... it's easy to not flop when you play it as safe as can be... look at Toyota, when's the last time they came out with something truly different? The FJ Cruiser, maybe? And even then, it was Toyota's version of the H3, hardly different.

Okay, as compared to other brands?  When is the last time Hyundai or Kia successfully invented a new genre?  When is the last time they tried?

It's extremely rare for ANY brand to successfully start a new genre.  The Prius is the only recent example in years that's been a resounding success on that front IMO.

New Slogan for Toyota - "Toyota Prius....Doing what the Magicwagon did in 1984"

That'd be true if Toyota invented something with the Prius, but they didn't. Honda invented the hybrid genre beforehand with the Insight.