Topic: Gas prices rise 8 cents not 8%

[dr_spock]

So the province charge 8% on top of the 14.7 cents. Nice.

So we should have some really nice roads going forward, n'est-ce pas? 

[Erik]

So the province charge 8% on top of the 14.7 cents. Nice.

Well I guess so.  What actually happens is that the Federal Government charges 13% instead of 5% and then returns 8% worth to the province.  This provides a good way for the province to weasel out of any questions by saying that its a federal tax and the evil money-grabbing Conservative government is doing the grabbing.

Should the gasoline tax go up by $2 a litre as John and Snowman suggest. Probably should but IMHO should be phased in at 50c every 6 months to give people some chance to get rid of their  big engined vehicles  before they are worthless.  And should it be added to the HST so that businesses can claim it back?  I think so but only if they are real businesses that charge and remit HST already.

I see no point in raising gas prices to $2/litre, except for wanting to wipe out the lower classes. As soon as the announcement came that gas started going up, who exactly do you think would buy those "big engined vehicles"? They would become totally worthless. And how about all those people who are 4 years into a 6 year loan on a minivan or SUV? Nice way to screw them too. Of course, public transit would go up like crazy, to cover the fuel costs. Way to screw an entire class of people.

No, the only people who would do well out of a scheme like that is those who could afford to pay the difference in gas anyway. I guess we could say that those who can't afford $2/litre gas don't need to be driving anyway, right?

[johngenx]

Huge gas taxes are horrifically regressive.  We need to curb the sales of the gas guzzlers.  We need to get people into public transit.  We need urban areas in Canada to increase density and invest in mass transit.

How do we do all this?  Well, an instant $2/L tax would cripple the economy in the short term.  We need a planned phase in of gas taxes combined with incredibly high gas guzzler taxes on the sale of high consumption vehicles.  We need a combined effort of all levels of government to maximize the investment in transit infrastructure, timing large expansion with economic downturns to minimize competition during tight labour markets.

We also need to stop exempting business from paying consumption taxes, regardless of "cost of doing business."  We need business to rethink consumption patterns as well.  We need manufacturers to be pressured to build fuel efficient transport and work vehicles.

[tpl]

Huge gas taxes are horrifically regressive.  We need to curb the sales of the gas guzzlers.  We need to get people into public transit.  We need urban areas in Canada to increase density and invest in mass transit.

How do we do all this?  Well, an instant $2/L tax would cripple the economy in the short term.  We need a planned phase in of gas taxes combined with incredibly high gas guzzler taxes on the sale of high consumption vehicles.  We need a combined effort of all levels of government to maximize the investment in transit infrastructure, timing large expansion with economic downturns to minimize competition during tight labour markets.

We also need to stop exempting business from paying consumption taxes, regardless of "cost of doing business."  We need business to rethink consumption patterns as well.  We need manufacturers to be pressured to build fuel efficient transport and work vehicles.

You were the one who initially suggested a IMMEDIATE tax RISE of $2 litre 

Agree on the density increase  and making transit available.
Agree on the phase in and on gas guzzler taxes.
At 3$ a litre the manufacturers would be pressured indeed to build fuel efficient vehicles.   In fact most of them already do build such work vehicles as well as private vehicles , they just don't sell them in NA. Our federal government could fix that in an afternoon. A tiny change to the emissions and construction and use regs to allow EU spec vehicles and Japanese Kei cars to be sold here.
Also at 3$ litre  the rates of income could be lowered appreciably or the tax free allowances raised a lot which would get a lot of people out of income tax completely.

But the whole point of a VAT consumption tax is that only the final people in the chain pay the tax. Businesses should certainly NOT pay it and as for specific fuel taxes, transit systems should certainly not pay that either.  SO imho the 2$ litre should be treated like a VAT so businesses and transit systems do not pay it and we agree should be phased in.

If, that is we should do that at all. Canada has enough oil and gas for a couple of centuries if we stopped exporting it and built pipelines and refineries for our own purposes only.  Maybe we should just retreat behind a tariff wall with  cheap energy and let the rest of the world suffer.  Then we wouldn't need transit, just a car industry and to build some better roads.   

[Erik]

And we need all this why? We certainly have more than enough taxes already.

Canada has huge spaces and long commutes. What we would need first is a viable public transit system, and only then could we start talking about the kind of changes being contemplated here. We have effectively no commuter train systems, compared to Europe or Japan, and the only city in Canada with a decent subway system is, maybe, Montreal. Toronto certainly has no where near the needed capacity in its transit system to deal with the kind of attack on drivers that you are contemplating.

So far, the market is doing well to adjust things. We have always had smaller cars in Canada in general than what the US has.  The number one selling car is the Civic and has been for years. Should gas prices rise again, the market will correct itself again.

[tpl]

It is not clear if you could EVER have  a satisfactory public transit system in Canada. Unless taxes were raised by a massive amount... and if you are to do that then "sin taxes" which include gasoline  and road tolls would be the way to go.

I only know about the GTA so;

You'd need trains to get to and from the remote suburbs and dormitory towns.   Big right of way problem.. we don't have governments who are prepared to draw lines on maps and then purchase whatever is in the way.  Even when there are existing rights of way and there are many within and around Toronto they are owned by CN or CP and the province has no legal way to force those particular companies to sell except by having the Feds do it. And another case. Look at the NIMBY problems with the line to the Airport through Weston.  If you use the diesels you have the people rant and rave, if you electrify the line then you'd have to it all the way to Georgetown and possibly beyond. ( Electrifying the GO network would be a great idea but expensive)

When you have the rights of way you have to build stations. and IMHO you'd want to run the trains underground as soon as they enter TO itself.  Expensive business tunneling but necessary I think.

So you do all this and as side projects you improve the subways as well.  The next problem is finding enough riders to run the system efficiently. The big Euro cities  have commuter populations the size of the whole on Ontario.  You'd be better off I think using the money to persuade businesses to move out to the exurbs from TO.   Some already have moved which has helped I guess.
Then you don't need the high density transit.

FWIW GO is going to expand train service to Guelph and KW.  Taking 3-4 years to do it...partially 'cos they have to dual track the 19th century railbed  from Acton to KW and build a place to park trains overnight.  Already  some Guelph NIMBYs are already complaining that they'll lose some downtown parking.  But the traffic projections look ok at least for the KW to Georgetown parts of the route... so it will be viable.

[johngenx]

So far, the market is doing well to adjust things. We have always had smaller cars in Canada in general than what the US has.  The number one selling car is the Civic and has been for years. Should gas prices rise again, the market will correct itself again.

Uh, you do know the reason we have more small cars is higher gas prices thanks to higher gas taxes, right?  Market forces, true, but guided by taxation policy.

[Erik]

So far, the market is doing well to adjust things. We have always had smaller cars in Canada in general than what the US has.  The number one selling car is the Civic and has been for years. Should gas prices rise again, the market will correct itself again.

Uh, you do know the reason we have more small cars is higher gas prices thanks to higher gas taxes, right?  Market forces, true, but guided by taxation policy.

What is being discussed here is something totally different from the level of taxation we have ever had. What you are discussing here is not just typically high level of Canadian taxes, but rather punative taxation put in place to change an entire part of the economy. Gas taxes becoming sin taxes, as it were.

[tpl]

So far, the market is doing well to adjust things. We have always had smaller cars in Canada in general than what the US has.  The number one selling car is the Civic and has been for years. Should gas prices rise again, the market will correct itself again.

Uh, you do know the reason we have more small cars is higher gas prices thanks to higher gas taxes, right?  Market forces, true, but guided by taxation policy.

What is being discussed here is something totally different from the level of taxation we have ever had. What you are discussing here is not just typically high level of Canadian taxes, but rather punative taxation put in place to change an entire part of the economy. Gas taxes becoming sin taxes, as it were.

Erik, there are many many people and I am NOT ONE OF THEM   who believe that the only salvation for Canada ( and the US ) is to give up on cars and make people walk and go on the bus.  Sort of a pre-WWI existence.   But you'll note that in those days MOST of the population lived close to their work, be it a factory or the family farm... that's no longer true and hasn't been since the 1950s.
The only ways to make people in NA give up their cars would be either to make them unaffordable or to forbid their use perhaps by rationing or queuing ( like the Communist bloc used to do).  Even then I suggest to you that any government that tried either of those here  would be an ex-government really quickly unless they decides to do a .... no Godwins Law here.... quasi legal takeover of the country.

[Erik]

Also kind of sad that we are really discussing something like this on a car enthusiast website. Can't imagine anything more likely to eliminate choice, and even worse, remove so many fun, enthusiast cars from our roads.

[wing]

If everyone had to live close enough to work to "walk" or other such transportation in -40 degree weather housing prices in areas surrounding industrial parks would sky rocket beyond afford-ability.

[tpl]

Also kind of sad that we are really discussing something like this on a car enthusiast website. Can't imagine anything more likely to eliminate choice, and even worse, remove so many fun, enthusiast cars from our roads.

It is sad indeed. We can take heart form the facts that the inhabitants of the UK and Germany to name but two places have sky high gas taxes and gas >$2 a litre** and manage to keep interesting cars on the road. 

** if the GBP was still at 2.1 to the $CDN it would be $2.7 litre in the UK... but equally if our $ was still at 75cents  not 94 we'd be at ( today  in Guelph )101.4* 94/75 = 127cents

[tpl]

If everyone had to live close enough to work to "walk" or other such transportation in -40 degree weather housing prices in areas surrounding industrial parks would sky rocket beyond afford-ability.

Indeed if that was suddenly imposed. But looking at old maps of Toronto and even Guelph( and I suspect the same would be true of Montreal)  individual factories were placed inside "residential districts ". Most of them have gone now but the old buildings are now rezoned to be lofts or light commercial ( small company offices)

A good example being the Distillery district in TO. A close together mix of factory buildings and warehouses  together with streets of workman's houses.

The town in the UK I grew up in had one slice of its pieshape dedicated to factories  and the residential density was such that many many people cycled to work or walked ( not at -40 however but in pissing rain) and the bus system diverted from regular routes during rush hour to serve the factory area.

[Erik]

It is sad indeed. We can take heart form the facts that the inhabitants of the UK and Germany to name but two places have sky high gas taxes and gas >$2 a litre** and manage to keep interesting cars on the road. 

** if the GBP was still at 2.1 to the $CDN it would be $2.7 litre in the UK... but equally if our $ was still at 75cents  not 94 we'd be at ( today  in Guelph )101.4* 94/75 = 127cents

I certainly didn't say there would be no fun cars. But a lot if stuff would go away. The much celebrated 5.0 Mustang would no longer be in contention in the cheap speed wars. Nor the Camaro, Challenger, RX8, etc. None of them are cheap to run now, but would likely disappear as daily drivers in that market. Sure, there are big engined cars in Europe, but they are an option only for the rich.

Not the end of the world for car enthusiasts, but certainly choice and flavours would be greatly limited.

[johngenx]

Not long ago people thought $1/L would be the end of the world.  It wasn't.  We need to cut the number of Tahoes being used as commuter vehicles not only to conserve a non-renewable resource, but to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

True, being concerned about the future of energy reserves and the environment can run contrary to being an auto enthusiast, but reality is reality.  The way we're operating now is not sustainable.

[blizzard35]

Regular gas is now $1.12.9 here in Northern Ontario, so at a $1.02 I certainly wouldn't complain.  I do have a real problem with this constant "upping" the price for a long weekend crap.  Why is a case of Molson Canadian the same price here in Northern Ontario and the same price in the GTA....the oil companies are constantly b.s. saying that it costs more to transport the gas north, which is a crock as 2 hours north of here, regular gas is cheaper by 3 cents a litre.  I use my car to earn a living, so every increase directly effects my bottom line.  I don't mind paying more sin taxes etc. if I actually see a benefit, but anyone that has travelled the roads in Northern Ontario knows that it's certainly not spent on repairs and upgrades.  Oh well, time to order my "moped" lol

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I drive for fun. Sitting in rush hour isn't fun, so I usually take the bus, sometimes the motorcycle.

Sunday morning at 6am is the time for a "fun" drive.

It's important to differentiate between people in the GTA and a few other relatively big cities. Outside of those few, most people's commutes are quite short. If you choose to work in Toronto, long commutes are part of the package. Want a 10 minute drive to work, pick a different city.

[99 Silver]

Huge gas taxes are horrifically regressive.  We need to curb the sales of the gas guzzlers.  We need to get people into public transit.  We need urban areas in Canada to increase density and invest in mass transit.

How do we do all this?  Well, an instant $2/L tax would cripple the economy in the short term.  We need a planned phase in of gas taxes combined with incredibly high gas guzzler taxes on the sale of high consumption vehicles.  We need a combined effort of all levels of government to maximize the investment in transit infrastructure, timing large expansion with economic downturns to minimize competition during tight labour markets.

We also need to stop exempting business from paying consumption taxes, regardless of "cost of doing business."  We need business to rethink consumption patterns as well.  We need manufacturers to be pressured to build fuel efficient transport and work vehicles.

I am convinced that our tax and spend politicians in Ontario would take that hypothetical extra $1 per litre in tax and p i s s  it away wildly like they do with the existing gas taxes.  It would be spent on a pile of stupid vote buying projects with a minimal amount on transit.

Remember that our politicians first concern is simply to spend our tax dollars in a way that will buy enough votes to get re-elected.

In the meantime the people who live in the existing suburbs would pay a huge cost.

[quadzilla]

If you choose to work in Toronto, long commutes are part of the package. Want a 10 minute drive to work, pick a different city.

Not always true. I have the longest commute for anybody in my office at around 45 minutes by bike and I take the long way. Driving is about the same.

GO Train takes 10 minutes to get to Union, another 20 minutes of walking after that.

TTC subway takes 40 minutes with 10 more minutes of walking (faster than waiting for a street car).

I understand not everybody can do that but there are choices.

Friends of mine moved about 1.25 hours (driving time) from their office downtown because they said houses are cheaper there. Sure they might be but if you factor in all the extra expenses that go with driving and your time (which I consider valuable) I don't think you are any further ahead.

[tpl]

Friends of mine moved about 1.25 hours (driving time) from their office downtown because they said houses are cheaper there. Sure they might be but if you factor in all the extra expenses that go with driving and your time (which I consider valuable) I don't think you are any further ahead.

We looked at that when we first moved to TO in 1978 (!) Choice of staying in TO or getting a big house up Newmarket way.  We factored in those expenses. We looked at time which was less then as the roads were much less congested.    Outcome: we moved to Cabbagetown and lived right downtown for nearly 30 years.