Author Topic: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!  (Read 1182 times)

Offline articsteve

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More Car Jobs Shift to Mexico
U.S. production may decline over the next decade, despite the bailout

By Thomas Black

The Obama Administration spent more than $80 billion last year to prop up General Motors and Chrysler in a controversial effort to save millions of American manufacturing jobs. Both car companies have since stabilized, and business is also looking up at Ford Motor (F). Yet as they map out their investment plans in the year ahead, the U.S. auto companies will likely put most of their new jobs and plant capacity in Mexico, not the U.S., auto analysts predict.

Chrysler announced in February that it's spending $550 million to retool its factory in Toluca to assemble the subcompact Fiat 500 model. Last month, Ford reopened an assembly plant in Cuautitlán to build Fiesta compacts for the 2011 model year. The factory will generate 2,000 jobs and is part of $3 billion in investments in Mexico announced since 2008. In the U.S., Ford has closed four assembly plants since 2006 and plans to close four more facilities by the end of 2011.

Mexico's gains will come at the expense of workers in the U.S. and Canada, says Dennis DesRosiers, president of DesRosiers Automotive Consultants in Richmond Hill, Ontario. Mexico's share of North American auto production will rise to 19 percent over the next decade, from an average of 12 percent from 2000 to 2009, according to DesRosiers. Over the same period the U.S. will lose 7 percentage points, to 65 percent of the market, and Canada's share will hold at 16 percent. "There is going to be more capacity put into North America—and Mexico is going to get more than its fair share," he says.

Moves to Mexico may speed up as Chrysler and GM pay back government bailout money and the political scrutiny they face eases, says Michael Robinet, vice-president of global forecasting for CSM Worldwide in Northville, Mich. The reason isn't hard to fathom. GM workers in Mexico earn wages and benefits of 340 pesos a day ($26.40) on average, or less than $4 an hour, says Tereso Medina, head of the union for GM's 5,000 workers in Saltillo, a city about 180 miles (300 kilometers) south of the Texas border, where one in four Mexican autos is produced. GM and Ford workers in the U.S. earn about $55 an hour with benefits.

Representative John Dingell (D-Mich.) believes U.S. automakers that received government assistance should work to preserve U.S. jobs. "I understand the economic argument for the offshoring of production, but I think the practice is reprehensible," Dingell noted in an e-mail. "U.S. automakers have benefitted greatly from federal largesse and should feel morally compelled to retain and create as many domestic jobs as possible."

Mexico stands to benefit from more stringent U.S. fuel-efficiency requirements because it's more profitable to make small cars where labor costs are lower, Robinet said. Ford says it continues to invest heavily in its American production capacity. Mexico was responsible for 14.2 percent of Ford's U.S.-Mexican car production last year and 16 percent in 2008, compared with 11.8 percent in 2006, according to company data. For every dollar Ford invested in Mexico during the past five years, the company spent $7 in the U.S., says James Tetreault, vice-president for North American manufacturing. Ford's two Mexican assembly plants have operated for more than 30 years, he says. "In North America, it's all about utilizing our existing footprint," Tetreault says. "It's not like we're building greenfield plants and moving production to Mexico."

GM has announced investments of $3.67 billion in Mexico since November 2007, including a new assembly plant in San Luis Potosí. The company has closed five U.S.-based assembly plants and put three more on standby since June 2005, according to Tom Wilkinson, a GM spokesman.

A significant portion of Chrysler's production of the Fiat 500 will be sold in South America, said Jodi Tinson, a spokeswoman. "Mexico is in an ideal position as a bridge between Nafta and Latin America because of the country's free-trade agreements with its neighbors to both the north and south," Tinson said in an e-mail.
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Offline mmret

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2010, 07:04:30 am »
Someone needs to find a unit-labour-cost chart somewhere comparing US/Germany/Japan vs. China/Mexico and Korea I guess.

Its not that $55 is too much, its that there is no way Robert the autoworker is 14x more productive than Roberto el trabajador automotriz.

Even 4x is probably stretching it.

And robots are willing to move to developing countries to work.

Sen Rep Dingell could easily just have said that senior UAW workers have benefited greatly from unionized largesse over the decades and should feel morally obligated to take serious pay cuts so that more jobs can be created in the US (in particular for the 20-29 bracket).
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 07:09:41 am by mmret »
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Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2010, 07:26:34 am »
Someone needs to find a unit-labour-cost chart somewhere comparing US/Germany/Japan vs. China/Mexico and Korea I guess.

Its not that $55 is too much, its that there is no way Robert the autoworker is 14x more productive than Roberto el trabajador automotriz.

Even 4x is probably stretching it.

And robots are willing to move to developing countries to work.

Sen Rep Dingell could easily just have said that senior UAW workers have benefited greatly from unionized largesse over the decades and should feel morally obligated to take serious pay cuts so that more jobs can be created in the US (in particular for the 20-29 bracket).

The standard of living is the driver.....I would assume that cost of living in the US is 10x more expensive than Mexico (assuming you could even get half of what the American worker is used to having access to), regardless of productivity.  Same thing goes China.

I agree with your arguement 100% in principle though about whether bolting a fender on a car or connecting a wiring harness is worth even $20 an hour, much less $55. 

Offline Power2Weight

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2010, 08:48:49 am »
Someone needs to find a unit-labour-cost chart somewhere comparing US/Germany/Japan vs. China/Mexico and Korea I guess.

Its not that $55 is too much, its that there is no way Robert the autoworker is 14x more productive than Roberto el trabajador automotriz.

Even 4x is probably stretching it.

And robots are willing to move to developing countries to work.

Sen Rep Dingell could easily just have said that senior UAW workers have benefited greatly from unionized largesse over the decades and should feel morally obligated to take serious pay cuts so that more jobs can be created in the US (in particular for the 20-29 bracket).

You don't have to look that far just ask the question which job requires more skill, throwing air filters into an Impala in Oshawa or throwing beef patties onto a griddle in Oshawa? With benefits there's got to be a $35 per hour difference and the beef patties still have to be removed at the correct time.???

Offline Vmango

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2010, 09:22:00 am »
$55 an hour for this kind of work is ludicrous. I'm sorry.





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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2010, 10:31:53 am »
This is why the Government should not be involved in bailouts and ownship of car companies. Its a conflict of interest. If they are trying to sell off their ownership share then its in their interest to see the company as profitable as possible , that way share price is higher and they recoup more of their investnment (OUR investment)

Yet the path to increased profitability runs in opposition to the stated goal of saving US/Canada manufacturing jobs.

It makes absolute sense form a business perspective to move as much production to Mexico as possible. With the economy and gas prices small cars are a bigger market than ever. Small cars need to be built in low cost areas to be more profitable.

No matter what the Government can't win. They put themselves in this positon.

Offline safristi

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2010, 01:38:31 pm »
Many a Canadian is making $10 to $12 an hour pre assembling the units at SUPPLIERS  for the Big 3 et al....who then pay triple Plus  that to screw them together at the MOTHER_PLANT......they would be better living in Mexico.............$20Grand a year with No benefits /Pension/Job Security  etc......and hired thru agencies............i know several young folk personally on such threadbare jobs and thousands more are out there..................
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Offline mmret

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2010, 06:54:41 pm »
Someone needs to find a unit-labour-cost chart somewhere comparing US/Germany/Japan vs. China/Mexico and Korea I guess.

Its not that $55 is too much, its that there is no way Robert the autoworker is 14x more productive than Roberto el trabajador automotriz.

Even 4x is probably stretching it.

And robots are willing to move to developing countries to work.

Sen Rep Dingell could easily just have said that senior UAW workers have benefited greatly from unionized largesse over the decades and should feel morally obligated to take serious pay cuts so that more jobs can be created in the US (in particular for the 20-29 bracket).

The standard of living is the driver.....I would assume that cost of living in the US is 10x more expensive than Mexico (assuming you could even get half of what the American worker is used to having access to), regardless of productivity.  Same thing goes China.

I agree with your arguement 100% in principle though about whether bolting a fender on a car or connecting a wiring harness is worth even $20 an hour, much less $55. 

Well I structured my argument mostly because for example Germany has very high labour costs, but on a unit labour cost basis they're pretty darn competitive.

America as a whole isn't the worst but the UAW is probably not exactly the lowest ULC in the world.

Offline jamie1

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2010, 09:22:11 pm »
That $55 is WITH benefits. I would venture a guess a lot of Canadians make at least that once you factor in the benefits. I know I make way more that that once you factor in my benefits.
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Offline rrocket

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2010, 10:04:52 pm »
That $55 is WITH benefits. I would venture a guess a lot of Canadians make at least that once you factor in the benefits. I know I make way more that that once you factor in my benefits.

They make $30+ per hour (before benefits) working at an unskilled job that requires ZERO special education.

Very few Canadians with those limited qualification make anywhere near that.
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Offline mmret

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2010, 10:36:30 pm »
How the hell you get to like $20/hr in benefits is way beyond me. Then again their benefits are probably retardedly good.

But yeah even $30/hr is too much for that.

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2010, 10:40:45 pm »
How the hell you get to like $20/hr in benefits is way beyond me. Then again their benefits are probably retardedly good.

But yeah even $30/hr is too much for that.

It's easy to get $20/hr benefits.  Pension plan, drug plan, extended health insurance, you get $$ for legal fees, they used to have tuition benefits, SUB, etc....
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 10:42:48 pm by rrocket »

Offline mmret

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2010, 06:03:30 pm »
That's like $40k/yr.

I have a pretty decent job (on an absolute basis anyways, on a relative basis I'm way underpaid) and benefits package and according to HR the value of my benefits/pension is barely more than $14k/yr. This even includes the EI/CPP! God dammit now I'm sad.

Offline Sival

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2010, 04:01:01 pm »
It's probably not even just salary and benefits, but also payroll taxes and similar costs.

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2010, 05:07:47 pm »
Before I retired the company I worked for estimated  benefits at around 30% of salary and thats without a pension scheme or legal aid but did include a stock purchase plan.
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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2010, 07:49:57 pm »
They make $4 AN HOUR IN MEXICO.  How the :censor: can we compete with that?  Stupid.  We're not going to shrink our wages to $4/hour...
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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2010, 08:06:02 pm »
They make $4 AN HOUR IN MEXICO.  How the :censor: can we compete with that?  Stupid.  We're not going to shrink our wages to $4/hour...

I don't think it needs to be shrunk to $4 an hour.  But certainly something more reasonable than $30+ hr. for a jopb requiring no skill and no education.

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2010, 08:46:18 pm »
..anyone KNOW what percentage of the cost of a car is Labour?...............don't they assemble these things in a hour NOW........and how come will still have assembly plants in CANUSA  unless the labour portion is comparatively TINY....some facts folks and less BULLSHIP..... :stick:................... ??? :think: :light:

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2010, 08:49:36 pm »
..anyone KNOW what percentage of the cost of a car is Labour?...............don't they assemble these things in a hour NOW........and how come will still have assembly plants in CANUSA  unless the labour portion is comparatively TINY....some facts folks and less BULLSHIP..... :stick:................... ??? :think: :light:

That's not the point.  The point is...given the choice...the automakers would rather pay LESS for this task.  And if that means finally getting fed up and moving all production down south, they will.  That's why I said they need to get wages a bit more in line with reality so the automakers aren't tempted to move.

Offline mmret

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Re: Will that be mild, medium, or hot sauce with your Fiesta ... Senor!
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2010, 08:52:20 pm »
Before I retired the company I worked for estimated  benefits at around 30% of salary and thats without a pension scheme or legal aid but did include a stock purchase plan.

Oh the legal aid. No line for that. But I highly doubt my employer would actually pay for that? Would probably just cut me loose.