Topic: Tire wear

[Rupert]

Is inside tire wear and cupping a common problem on cars that appear to have negative camber. Can this be dialed out one way or another with a kit or springs or ball joints or allignment or all of these things. The extra road holding is not worth the cost in tires if that is what the set-up is for. Not to mention the noise and vibration that is caused by the tire wear.

[tpl]

Certainly many current regular, normal, everyday cars have some negative camber at the rear., enough to be visible on some.  I have no idea if a small amount used with tires chosen by the car and tire maker together have a problem.

Years ago some tire makers refused to supply BMW with OEM tires as BMW's negative camber setup used to wear out the rear tires very quickly.

[bridgecity]

Is inside tire wear and cupping a common problem on cars that appear to have negative camber. Can this be dialed out one way or another with a kit or springs or ball joints or allignment or all of these things. The extra road holding is not worth the cost in tires if that is what the set-up is for. Not to mention the noise and vibration that is caused by the tire wear.

What vehicle is this on? 

[Rupert]

A five year old...well maintained Mazda 3. 80,000 km so far and two sets of tires. Otherwise a nice car and driven mildly. Allignments have been done and presumably the dealer checked for joint play.

Could springs have fatigued causing increased camber? Or shocks not be up to par? Is there a minimum ride height that can be measured and what is it?

You can not replace everything but just throwing tires at the problem is no solution either.

Any help or others experience would be appreciated.

[bridgecity]

Just install some airbags and jack 'er up until you've got zero camber  .

You could measure another 3 of the same vintage and see if yours is sitting lower.

[aquadorhj]

It could just be the tires themselves.  what are the wear ratings and is there a mileage guarantee on the rubbers?

as some have mentioned already, most modern cars have negative camber built-in for the rears, for safety reasons.  compounding factor for mazda is that mazda 3's come with low-profile 17" high performance all seasons.   

if the alignment is up to spec, then maybe you could try cheaper, harder compound rubber next time, and monitor proper air pressure for the tires.

I wouldn't worry about springs on a car with 80k on it.  unless you beat it to hell and back everyday. in my experience, shocks would go way before springs would.

[Rupert]

I don't think cupping has anything to do with tire rating and why would a mildly driven car be exhibiting these things in the first place. The worn out tires were original equipment and the later ones are good quality Pirelli's. Might be a point about cambered low profile tires though...less wall flexability to allow for the camber angle. This might explain severe inside wear but not cupping I would have thought.

I think that the tires should be vertical. Most of the cars that I have owned had vertical tires and never had anything like this problem. The Renault R8 had anything but vertcal tires but the tires were the early Michelin X with soft deeper side walls and inner tubes. Other cars owned had IRS...TR6, Sable, Intrepid and again no offset tire wear but the tires were vertical and deeper side walls.

[aquadorhj]

Is inside tire wear and cupping a common problem on cars that appear to have negative camber.

sorry, i forgot the original question.   on negative camber cars, inside tire wear is expected, but off-set by regular tire rotation.

cupping (aka scalloping) is abnormal wear (not just quick, but uneven wear) near sidewall.

cupping is NOT common.   in negative camber wheels.    if your new set of tires are already cupping, maybe it's suspension problem.  loose wheel nut or tie rod is worn out?  i would get it checked ASAP by good mechanic.  not just "certified mechanic", but a good one.

all my previous cars have had negative camber rears, and none of them ever had cupping.   of course, none of my cars had low profile rubber either, but i would think that cupping is an issue that you would have to fix soon.

I think that the tires should be vertical.

Vertical tires( 0 degree camber) certainly has its place in straight line, but i think for general population who may be unaware of their car's capability, slight negative camber affords bit more traction in the corners, off-setting the quicker wear.   (it may also entirely be due to the law-suit happy nature of current north-american consumers...) i don't know.

[Rupert]

Most people in North America, like 99% maybe, drive mostly in a straight line most of the time. So that in this condition one would have thought that it would be beneficial to ride on most of the tire tread instead of just some of it. One wonders if the trade off for extra cornering power (if that is what it is) is the way to go on ordinary road going vehicles where longevity of tire life is an important feature. Racing saloons only have to go a few laps.

Yes, a good mechanic. Where do you find one who is knowledgeable about this very subject. Cupping is a different matter to offset tire wear due to camber I think and suspension wear may be indicated.

[blur911]

The Mazda 3 is supposed to be a sporty car, hence the negative camber.  Trade it for a Corolla which is not designed to go around corners. 

You could get much of the negative camber out with a re-alignment.  Then see if the rear can pass the front next time an emergency maneuver is required, it'll be fun.

[Rupert]

 I have not had to make such an emergency manouver in fifty years of driving and would not be looking for this kind of set-up to overcome such an event. I am pretty sure that sporty or well handling cars abound without having to resort to negative camber to any degree. In fact most of the cars that you see on the road have vertical  or near as dammit rear wheels in normal loading and trim even with IRS. If only the inner part of the tread is going to recieve most of the load perhaps the tire casing and tread should be designed accordingly so that at midlife the tread depth would be constant across.

Anyway maybe you have answered the question ie., when you do this then this is the result...situation normal. I would be inclined to rotate the tires very frequently and hopefully the tires per side can be exchanged with one jacking for convenience.

The responder who wrote about harder extremely low profile sidewalls has a good point. Maybe taller and softer sidewalls would reduce the problem somewhat.

[wing]

Negative camber wont' really create that much more wear, toe will though.... 

[blur911]

Negative camber wont' really create that much more wear, toe will though.... 

Yeah, I have 2.5 degrees on the rear and get pretty even wear, you just have to make the car lean a little in the corners to balance it out. 

Does a Mazda 3 have rear struts or upper and lower control arms? If it's struts then camber will change with suspension movement, but can be controlled better if it has upper and lower control arms.

BTW, if you google mazda 3  uneven tire wear, it seems to be a somewhat common complaint.

[wing]

Toe will also make it nearly impossible to push your car haha

[Angry Chicken]

I just replaced the OE Goodyear Eagle RS-As on my 2007 Mazda3.  They were smoothly and evenly worn but right down to their treadwear indicators at about 20k of mileage.  Yes, the car does have noticeable negative camber on the rear but it doesn't seem (at least in my case) to cause uneven tire wear on the inside.  I rotated my tires once each of the two seasons that I had them on.  I used winter tires for the non-summer months.  As for the perceived issue with the obvious negative camber in the rear suspension geometry, I'm thinking that the Mazda engineers are probably smart enough to engineer out any of the more obvious idiosynchrocies of such an arrangement.

In answer to Blur911's question, the rear suspension is a multilink arrangement, an evolution of Mazda's Twin Trapezoidal Link (TTL) suspension.

[dr_spock]

Have you checked for bad balance or loose wheel bearings?   I had cupping before due to an unbalanced wheel/tire.   

[ktm525]

20k on performance tires isn't bad. The OEM Pirelli's on the Volvo hit the wear bars in 15k. A performance tire is only going to last 20-30k in my experiences.

[Rupert]

I sure as heck want more than 20k km. out of a set of tires. The original 14" ones on my 2006 Accent have 50,000 km. already and nowhere near the wear bar. I changed the original set on my Intrepid Sport at 80,000 km. and the second set went to 160,000 km. and were still serviceable when the car was sold. Michelins on an old slant six Duster, installed when the car was new, were still going strong at 100,000 'miles'.

OK just ordinary everyday keep up driving which is what most people do.

[maritime_storm]

No offense intended Rupert, but you bought a car with a sport tuned suspension, that comes with a performance sized tire, tread life is not going to be optional on this car. Other Mazda3 owners have just told you this. Short of selling it for something else, their isn't much you can do regarding tire life. The Accent, Intrepid & Duster were commuter/family cars and they typically come with an all-season or touring tire. Performance tires(ie 55 series and lower profile) are designed to grab the road like claws, to do so they come with a softer rubber compound that wears faster.

[Rupert]

You are right on that score maybe...but it does not happen to be my own car but a family members. I have to admit to being the owner of the lowly Accent. Lowly perhaps but it will do everything that the law allows on the highway with reasonable aplomb so I wonder what is important here. Anyway it seems that the subject has been covered but one is left wondering if tire wear on sporty machines should be equivakent to lowly models if equivalent driving techniques are used. Or would the lowly machines be champions in this respect with their smaller and cheaper original rubber. You can fit softer compound tires on any suspension system to enhance the grip if you have a mind to. Will probably trade for the next Accent or Fiesta before the original tires are worn out. I am inclined to score one for low weight flex beam axles here but am not ruling out IRS. The Intrepid and Sable were fine and did notice the handling benefits in both of those cars; especially on bumpy curves and tire wear was uniform and not excessive.