Topic: Stop the 407 ETR's Abuse of Power!

[TammyFlores]

Mike - I too am a happy 407ETR customer. Never had billing problems. All have been accurate. I've only called them to change my address twice and always received my bill. I am happy with them and am happy it's a toll highway, keeps the *etards off.

  Raising tolls to lower traffic volume is not a solution for a highway built by tax payers.

[airbalancer]

 

A 100km trip on 407 over $25
A 100 mile trip in Penn tollpike $8
mmm, I think the cost is a little high for the 407 compared to other toll roads

  Because they are test driving a market solution for a public issue.  I would say it's a huge fail!

Please explain your comment

[safristi]

..DOLLARS PER KILOMETERS..................WE lose.......

[overtakeyouintheleftlane]

Tammy- It works though, it keeps congestion low. That's the point of why they raise it.

Funny this came up, I just dealt with them today (work related).

[TammyFlores]

Tammy- It works though, it keeps congestion low. That's the point of why they raise it.

Funny this came up, I just dealt with them today (work related).

But what does it do to people like me trapped on the 401, imprisoned for hours sometimes.  So only those that can afford it time's precious?  I am a single mother, that works my a$$ off.  I don't deserve to get home at a decent hour to be with my family?  Is that what you are telling me about a highway that was built with tax payers dollars?

[TammyFlores]

A 100km trip on 407 over $25
A 100 mile trip in Penn tollpike $8
mmm, I think the cost is a little high for the 407 compared to other toll roads

  Because they are test driving a market solution for a public issue.  I would say it's a huge fail!

Please explain your comment

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/01/11/stuck-in-traffic/4/ This was an article found in McLean's Magazine.  I don't think that privatizing operations is the best solution for a public issue.  Zero money goes back to infrastructure and profit fills pockets of investors.

[overtakeyouintheleftlane]

"But what does it do to people like me trapped on the 401, imprisoned for hours sometimes.  So only those that can afford it time's precious?  I am a single mother, that works my a$$ off.  I don't deserve to get home at a decent hour to be with my family?  Is that what you are telling me about a highway that was built with tax payers dollars?"

I'm not saying that, I just said that raising tolls controls congestion. I didn't say if it was right or wrong. I know it sucks but it does work. It may be immoral but it's legal.


I can only imagine how busy the 407ETR would be if it was toll-free. It would be the next DVP or 401.

[tpl]

A 100km trip on 407 over $25
A 100 mile trip in Penn tollpike $8
mmm, I think the cost is a little high for the 407 compared to other toll roads

  Because they are test driving a market solution for a public issue.  I would say it's a huge fail!

Please explain your comment

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/01/11/stuck-in-traffic/4/ This was an article found in McLean's Magazine.  I don't think that privatizing operations is the best solution for a public issue.  Zero money goes back to infrastructure and profit fills pockets of investors.

I'd settle for 25cents a litre gas and all roads tolled PROVIDED THAT the tolls were set for individual roads/by time of day/day of the week.  I 'd happily stay off the arterials and expressways in rush hour.

Ms Flores. The Ontario government COULD pass a law and take back the 407 with or without compensation. It might have to then ignore any Supreme court findings or Federal government laws about such an action  but I think it could do it if it chose to.  Good luck then in getting any sensible private company to ever engage in a contract with the government again except on a cash in advance basis.

But why bother. The 407 works well as it is and, when I use it, usually middle of the day on weekdays, it is not crowded and pleasant to drive on. So it costs...so what.

"But what does it do to people like me trapped on the 401, imprisoned for hours sometimes.  So only those that can afford it time's precious?  I am a single mother, that works my a$$ off.  I don't deserve to get home at a decent hour to be with my family?  Is that what you are telling me about a highway that was built with tax payers dollars?"

You could move or move jobs if you don't like the 401 and don't wish to pay for the 407.

[TammyFlores]

"But what does it do to people like me trapped on the 401, imprisoned for hours sometimes.  So only those that can afford it time's precious?  I am a single mother, that works my a$$ off.  I don't deserve to get home at a decent hour to be with my family?  Is that what you are telling me about a highway that was built with tax payers dollars?"

I'm not saying that, I just said that raising tolls controls congestion. I didn't say if it was right or wrong. I know it sucks but it does work. It may be immoral but it's legal.


I can only imagine how busy the 407ETR would be if it was toll-free. It would be the next DVP or 401.

This is a problem that comes with growth. When this highway was being planned in the 90's, the GTA exploded soon after, whereas Toronto had a steady rate of growth at approximately 4%.  The highway was built to take on the growth and it's not being used for what it was designed to do.

[overtakeyouintheleftlane]

"The 407 works well as it is" - I agree, in over 7.5 years I've never had a billing issue. It's always been accurate and the staff has always been pleasant and polite.

Tammy, what city do you reside in? By the looks of some of your youtube videos, do you live in Ajax, Whitby or Oshawa? Why would you constantly have to use it?

[overtakeyouintheleftlane]

Never mind, I just noticed on this profile, Ajax, ON

[TammyFlores]

A 100km trip on 407 over $25
A 100 mile trip in Penn tollpike $8
mmm, I think the cost is a little high for the 407 compared to other toll roads

  Because they are test driving a market solution for a public issue.  I would say it's a huge fail!

Please explain your comment

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/01/11/stuck-in-traffic/4/ This was an article found in McLean's Magazine.  I don't think that privatizing operations is the best solution for a public issue.  Zero money goes back to infrastructure and profit fills pockets of investors.

I'd settle for 25cents a litre gas and all roads tolled PROVIDED THAT the tolls were set for individual roads/by time of day/day of the week.  I 'd happily stay off the arterials and expressways in rush hour.

Ms Flores. The Ontario government COULD pass a law and take back the 407 with or without compensation. It might have to then ignore any Supreme court findings or Federal government laws about such an action  but I think it could do it if it chose to.  Good luck then in getting any sensible private company to ever engage in a contract with the government again except on a cash in advance basis.

But why bother. The 407 works well as it is and, when I use it, usually middle of the day on weekdays, it is not crowded and pleasant to drive on. So it costs...so what.

"But what does it do to people like me trapped on the 401, imprisoned for hours sometimes.  So only those that can afford it time's precious?  I am a single mother, that works my a$$ off.  I don't deserve to get home at a decent hour to be with my family?  Is that what you are telling me about a highway that was built with tax payers dollars?"

You could move or move jobs if you don't like the 401 and don't wish to pay for the 407.

  Like I haven't heard that argument before "You could move or move jobs if you don't like the 401 and don't wish to pay for the 407".  First of all, I am not against toll roads.  I am against privatizing public infrastructure to create an investment niche.  If the highway was tolled to cover construction/maintenance costs that would be a different story, but should still be monitored by the public to avoid the abuse of power taking place right now.

Secondly, it would cost me to have the equivalent lifestyle $100,000.00 more on a mortgage, plus real estate, legal fees, ect... to move.  I don't get paid enough.  I would love to work from home, but where I am, the company doesn't offer that.  To find a job that pays me the same in this area isn't possible.  Truth is the majority of people in the GTA find themselves in the same situation and we have to commute.  That's why the 407 was constructed.

This highway was constructed under the planning act.  For the anticipated growth. When this highway was being planned in the 90's, the GTA exploded soon after, whereas Toronto had a steady rate of growth at approximately 4%.  The highway was built to take on the growth and it's not being used for what it was designed to do.

[TammyFlores]

"The 407 works well as it is" - I agree, in over 7.5 years I've never had a billing issue. It's always been accurate and the staff has always been pleasant and polite.

Tammy, what city do you reside in? By the looks of some of your youtube videos, do you live in Ajax, Whitby or Oshawa? Why would you constantly have to use it?

  Thanks for the question.  The issues I have stem back to the year 2000 when I lived in Vaughn.  There is a problem in how their administration interprets the 407 Act and how they feel they have special status.  That must be corrected.

As a resident of Ajax, this highway is being extended into my neck of the woods.  My property taxes is going up for the construction of this highway.

The Province is trying desperately to distance themselves from the current operator of this highway when it comes to the extension. I am not convinced that that distance exists.  Minister Wynne can not say that she wants a seamless system without the current operators involvement.  If the current operator is to be involved that has to be transparent to the public because there is even more of an outcry with regards to this company's business practices now, than there was in 2004 when Minister Harinder Takhar first ordered Mike Colle to set up a panel to investigate this operator's customer service.

Unfortunately for us, they veered off into tolls and never accomplished what they set out to do in the beginning.  I say we start another panel and fix the problem once and for all.
 

[Mike]

As a resident of Ajax, this highway is being extended into my neck of the woods.  My property taxes is going up for the construction of this highway.

I have a lot of family in Durham including Ajax.  I have heard nothing of the sort. Can you point me to the documentation stating the direct relation between property taxes going up in the near future exclusively for a highway extension?

For three years (until I moved recently) I took the 407 from the 400 to near its end in Markham.  Trust me, it is being used for what it was intended for.  The highway was always packed with commuters moving at a moderate pace.  I now use it for two exits from Oakville to Mississauga in the morning and it is still crowded, but flowing.

What about HOV lanes on major highways?  Shouldn't that also bother you in reference the planning act?  Valuable space used for lane expansion in the GTA is being used up by lanes that only car-poolers can use.  Since you said you are a single mom I assume you commute to work solo and cannot use these either (although there are none on the 401.....yet.....)?

To the original point of this thread 'Stop the 407's Abuse of Power'.  The company that bought run it successfully, maintain it, expand lanes, keep it clean, etc.  If someone wants to pay for it, then use it.  I don't see any abuse of power from the owning company, at least no more then I hear about people complain about any large company in Canada.  Substitute the '407' with 'Bell, Rogers, Canadian Tire, Telus, Union Gas, etc' and the stories are much the same. 

As you have mentioned in your posts, your issue is with the government handling of the highway.  Your thread should be titled 'Stop the government from lying and going back on their word' which is hard, as we voters try, yet it never seems to work.

[TammyFlores]

As a resident of Ajax, this highway is being extended into my neck of the woods.  My property taxes is going up for the construction of this highway.

I have a lot of family in Durham including Ajax.  I have heard nothing of the sort. Can you point me to the documentation stating the direct relation between property taxes going up in the near future exclusively for a highway extension?

For three years (until I moved recently) I took the 407 from the 400 to near its end in Markham.  Trust me, it is being used for what it was intended for.  The highway was always packed with commuters moving at a moderate pace.  I now use it for two exits from Oakville to Mississauga in the morning and it is still crowded, but flowing.

What about HOV lanes on major highways?  Shouldn't that also bother you in reference the planning act?  Valuable space used for lane expansion in the GTA is being used up by lanes that only car-poolers can use.  Since you said you are a single mom I assume you commute to work solo and cannot use these either (although there are none on the 401.....yet.....)?

To the original point of this thread 'Stop the 407's Abuse of Power'.  The company that bought run it successfully, maintain it, expand lanes, keep it clean, etc.  If someone wants to pay for it, then use it.  I don't see any abuse of power from the owning company, at least no more then I hear about people complain about any large company in Canada.  Substitute the '407' with 'Bell, Rogers, Canadian Tire, Telus, Union Gas, etc' and the stories are much the same. 

As you have mentioned in your posts, your issue is with the government handling of the highway.  Your thread should be titled 'Stop the government from lying and going back on their word' which is hard, as we voters try, yet it never seems to work.

Mike... there is a private/public relationship between the 407 ETR & the Province.  An Abuse of Power is usually used when referring to elected officials. We are hearing alot about it in the news over the Bev Oda affair here in Canada’s Federal Office. It’s the official misconduct or the commission of an unlawful act done in an official capacity which affects the performance of official duties.  It can extend into the private world that is acting on behalf of public interests such as the current operators of Highway 407.

We are already trying to reign in a few of the companies you mentioned and it's going well so far.  Bell backed down and is now trying another submission which I think will be the same BS, just a different pile.  It's so obvious they don't want UBB an election issue because they would lose that battle hands down.

As for the 407, the argument is not weather they maintain it, expand lanes, keep it clean, etc... For my part anyway it's how they interpret the 407 Act and feel they have "special status" when it comes to how they bill and collect from people.  Invoice supression has caused invoices to be sent out years after a charge MAY have incurred and then they expect to be able to collect interest on their mistake.  They can argue what ever they want, but the bottom line is fine.... then switch to manned toll boths if you can't bill & collect from people properly... PROBLEM SOLVED!!!  They don't provide you with proof of lawful charges against you and MTO should not be honoring plate denial requests without it.  Because this is happening it is an abuse of power.  You can't even suspend someone's driver's license for drinking and driving without a conviction.  If they claim you owe then it's up to them to prove it and they don't.

[Jaeger]

^^^ Tammy - very well-said.

Jaeger

[tpl]

You can't even suspend someone's driver's license for drinking and driving without a conviction.  If they claim you owe then it's up to them to prove it and they don't.

Well actually you can in Ontario  for getting "caught" with BAC between 50 and 79 mg/L   And there is no conviction.

So I agree on this part of your argument about the 407.    They should absolutely NOT be able to have your plate renewal suspende unless they have first taken you to court and got a judgement for non-payment. To get that they will of course have to prove that you did travel on the road and did not pay.

I believe that the judgement that the 407 owners got against the province when the province stopped denying plate renewal should have been ignored by the province, rule of law be damned... alternatively the province should charge the 407 $10,000 "administrative fee" for every plate denial.

rant aside... the problem is that the province has no concept of private property. Not just roads but lots of other stuff...I won't go into any examples in this thread.

[TammyFlores]

You can't even suspend someone's driver's license for drinking and driving without a conviction.  If they claim you owe then it's up to them to prove it and they don't.

Well actually you can in Ontario  for getting "caught" with BAC between 50 and 79 mg/L   And there is no conviction.

So I agree on this part of your argument about the 407.    They should absolutely NOT be able to have your plate renewal suspende unless they have first taken you to court and got a judgement for non-payment. To get that they will of course have to prove that you did travel on the road and did not pay.

I believe that the judgement that the 407 owners got against the province when the province stopped denying plate renewal should have been ignored by the province, rule of law be damned... alternatively the province should charge the 407 $10,000 "administrative fee" for every plate denial.

rant aside... the problem is that the province has no concept of private property. Not just roads but lots of other stuff...I won't go into any examples in this thread.

  But you still have to go to court and be convicted to have a lengthy suspension.  Even then, they can bring in expert witnesses and try to beat the charges.  I've seen it done and the drinking and driving charges are thrown out of court on a technicality.

But there are more factors then if you drove on the highway.  The problem is within their administration.  They supress invoices, send them out years after the fact with criminal amounts interest charges.  They feel they have special status and so the statute of limitations don't apply to them.  They feel if you own the plate then that's all the proof they need.  I have a few stories I haven't posted on our website, because they want to remain private and just referenced, that reveal how stressful it is.  One woman is so distraught over this because when they finally sent her a bill... it was also a notice to go to court.  She says it was her ex husband that drove, not her, but that her ex husband had the plate in her name.  She thinks the original amount was under $1,000.00, but they were asking about $18,000 from her.  They got a judgment against her because she didn't know what to do and no one was there to help her.  That's criminal.  This is what I mean when I say, the Province is leaving us holding the bag.  It's time they carry their own luggage and fix this!  I want a class action lawsuit and bring in people like this if possible.  She's in tears over it.  How is this serving the public interest?  She is just one member in our society that a compassionate country such as Canada is supposed to be known for to protect.  And she is not the only story of thousands and thousands in interest charges.

The problem is within MTO too.  I have been demanding for 6 years now, that they deny the 407 ETR's plate denial request until proof of "lawful" charges against me has been established.  My constitutional rights are being trampled on by being in plate denial without proof of lawful charges.  It's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until you go to the privacy commissioner twice to compel documentation and try to prove you are innocent.  Which by the way, I still do not have my documentation that I requested.

Highway 407 is not private property, it's public.  They leased out operations and that's were there's a disconnect.

[safristi]

Damn i woz onna 407 Once when New and FREE................sounds like a piece of tarmac/concrete!? to AVOID.............how complicated does ones life need to be...............now i have free tickets to a HELLS ANGELS benefit dance...chance to win a free membership doorprize........ ANY TAKERS.........

[TammyFlores]

You can't even suspend someone's driver's license for drinking and driving without a conviction.  If they claim you owe then it's up to them to prove it and they don't.

Well actually you can in Ontario  for getting "caught" with BAC between 50 and 79 mg/L   And there is no conviction.

So I agree on this part of your argument about the 407.    They should absolutely NOT be able to have your plate renewal suspende unless they have first taken you to court and got a judgement for non-payment. To get that they will of course have to prove that you did travel on the road and did not pay.

I believe that the judgement that the 407 owners got against the province when the province stopped denying plate renewal should have been ignored by the province, rule of law be damned... alternatively the province should charge the 407 $10,000 "administrative fee" for every plate denial.

rant aside... the problem is that the province has no concept of private property. Not just roads but lots of other stuff...I won't go into any examples in this thread.

Just one more point about the Province and the epic court case battle that is so misconstrued in the media.  The Province did not lose.  They settled.  In their agreement, in Schedule B, it's very clear re: Plate Denial process.  It is only if there are lawful charges that this would take place.  The problem is that MTO is not requiring the 407 to prove lawful charges.  I totally agree with you... there should be a judgment against someone and then an administrative fee but more than that is that there has to be a place for the public to go that is equipment to handle the 407 issues.  No one is currently doing anything about it.