Topic: Inside Story: 2010 Honda Civic Si Coupe

[Erik]

You obviously haven't drove the Hyunda Genesis Coupe.  That interior is miles ahead of the SS, not to mention a bit better than the Civic SI.  As for a grown up compact racer (for people over their 30's) there is no comparison to the VW GTI.  I will say that the WRX and Evo are good too but for me I just find them a bit too kid racer if I was in my 30's, I'd probably go with the Legacy GT instead.

Yup, I have driven the Hyundai Genesis Coupe. Thought I even did a write up on it here.

 Nothing at all "miles ahead" in the interior on the Genesis. Same combination of hard, soft and silver painted plastics in the Genesis and the Cobalt. Neither is really that bad, for the price. I don't expect all of that performance AND Audi quality plastics inside. I am willing to sacrifice something for the money, and if I have to get cheaper plastic inside, then so be it.

Again, you make silly arguments. Option up those cars to be similar option/performance level of the Cobalt SS and they will all be $10,000 + more expensive. Sure you will get more car there, but you are paying almost 50% more for it.

[Erik]

My Cobalt handled significantly....SIGNIFICANTLY better than the WRX.

The WRX is definitely a better car all around.

No argument there.
It is also why the WRX costs a LOT more money than the Cobalt SS.

Let's not forget that it did do an 8:22 on the Nurburgring, on a partially wet lap. That makes it only 4 secods a lap slower than a Lexus ISF, for instance, and a set of racing tires away from a lot of very serious performance cars.

No one says the Cobalt SS is the best car period. But it is certainly the best performance car for anywhere near the money and might just be the best handling front wheel drive car available.

[Erik]

Erik. I agree with you. I never really let a "lack of respect" get to me. It was always enjoyable when I dusted guys who had no idea what just hit them. I would always just get the usual anti-GM comments. It's annoying.

The interior had a lot of hard plastics. Other than that - It was certainly good enough. I don't think the Civic Si is just for the Fast and Furious crew. At least here in Canada I see many older gentlemen driving Civic Sis (40-50+)

At this stage of my life I'm not that much of an "interior man." Handling, speed, and fun-factor all rank higher for me. After all, my dream car is a Corvette Zo6. Driving a Zo6 must be the same as driving the Cobalt SS. You can probably kick everyone's ass, but people are always going to give you a hard time.

My Cobalt was modified and put out about 250BHP. You could hear the supercharger whine from a mile away. It was glorious. I loved that car. The turbo one is even faster.

All I'm saying is that for those who are insecure in what the drive, they'd probably opt for the Si over the SS. That's all.

EDIT: Jaeger's putz post is the exact thing I'm talking about. Complete lack of respect. Clueless.

Excellent post.
Glad to see a real driving enthusiast here. Usually it is like an accountants convention or a plastic manufacturers get together. Everything else seems to matter except how much fun the car is to drive. I am willing to give up a whole bunch of other stuff for a car that is actually fun to drive. There are sadly very few of those around any more. Especially at a low 20's price.

Was just admiring a WRX last night. Not my kind of car, but it certainly does seem that someone at Subaru cares.

[Mitlov]

Jaeger, the Cobalt SS is much more than a fast engine.  Every review I've ever read talked about the Cobalt SS Turbo as the best-handling FWD car ever, or something along those lines.  It's really unexpected, as the base Cobalt is so miserable, but the Cobalt SS really is a remarkably-good-handling car.

One example, from Car & Driver, where it came in third out of seven for sport compacts, ahead of the WRX and Civic Si, and behind the GTI and Mazdaspeed3:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q1/cobalt_ss_v_wrx_and_5_more_sport_compacts-comparison_tests/2709_chevrolet_cobalt_ss_page_6

Highs: Everything associated with moving—engine, brakes, chassis—is superb.

Lows: Everything else is still a Cobalt, which means styling blahs and plastics as paltry as they come.

The Verdict: A rocket disguised as a rental.

Not everyone's cup of tea, but certainly not a lousy car with a fast engine either.

[vdk]

Some of us here can give credit where it's due. Some can't.

[Jaeger]

Jaeger, the Cobalt SS is much more than a fast engine.  Every review I've ever read talked about the Cobalt SS Turbo as the best-handling FWD car ever, or something along those lines.  It's really unexpected, as the base Cobalt is so miserable, but the Cobalt SS really is a remarkably-good-handling car..

Never said it couldn't handle - just said that it reeks of cheapness in any non-performance respect, and of all the hot / hatch pocket / rocket type of vehicles, it would rank dead last on my purchase list.  Tell me Mitlov - would you choose this car for yourself?  Go sit in a GTI.  Then go sit in a Cobalt and tell me those two aren't galaxies apart in quality of materials alone.

I don't race cars on a track for a living - or for recreation.  So the fact that I could "kick someon's ass" with the Cobalt is of little value.  That, and I like to think I have reached a level of emotional maturity where linking my self-worth with the performance of my automobile would be patently absurd.  Day to day, I would get more driving enjoyment out of just about any of the vehciles in this class than I would out of the fast-but-otherwise-craptastic Cobalt.

Jaeger

PS - Mitlov - in your sometimes role as thread-nanny, isn't this the part where you should be complaining about how the domestic fanboys have hijacked a Civic thread to endlessly beat the Cobalt drum?  I mean, had it been the reverse, certain folks here would have been bleating loudly and long ago.

[Jaeger]

You obviously haven't drove the Hyunda Genesis Coupe.  That interior is miles ahead of the SS, not to mention a bit better than the Civic SI. 

Quite correct - the interior IS miles ahead of the Cobalt.  Frnkly, I can hardly think of a vehcile whose interior I would rank behind the Cobalt. You have to keep in mind that with Erik, he'll defend the domestic brands unto death.  He thinks the Camaro has a first class interior.  Nuff said.

Jaeger

[Turbo Bob]

Erik. I agree with you. I never really let a "lack of respect" get to me. It was always enjoyable when I dusted guys who had no idea what just hit them. I would always just get the usual anti-GM comments. It's annoying.

The interior had a lot of hard plastics. Other than that - It was certainly good enough. I don't think the Civic Si is just for the Fast and Furious crew. At least here in Canada I see many older gentlemen driving Civic Sis (40-50+)

At this stage of my life I'm not that much of an "interior man." Handling, speed, and fun-factor all rank higher for me. After all, my dream car is a Corvette Zo6. Driving a Zo6 must be the same as driving the Cobalt SS. You can probably kick everyone's ass, but people are always going to give you a hard time.

My Cobalt was modified and put out about 250BHP. You could hear the supercharger whine from a mile away. It was glorious. I loved that car. The turbo one is even faster.

All I'm saying is that for those who are insecure in what the drive, they'd probably opt for the Si over the SS. That's all.

EDIT: Jaeger's putz post is the exact thing I'm talking about. Complete lack of respect. Clueless.

Excellent post.
Glad to see a real driving enthusiast here. Usually it is like an accountants convention or a plastic manufacturers get together. Everything else seems to matter except how much fun the car is to drive. I am willing to give up a whole bunch of other stuff for a car that is actually fun to drive. There are sadly very few of those around any more. Especially at a low 20's price.

Was just admiring a WRX last night. Not my kind of car, but it certainly does seem that someone at Subaru cares.

I think when buying a car you just have to decide on where you want your money spent.  Manufacturers decide whether to spend say $10K on the interior, or to beef up the engine, or solely on reliability, or on design etc.  The Cobalt is a good example of a manufacturer spending more on the engine/drivetrain/handling than on the interior, which IMHO is a good thing.  But some people will want a slower car with better design and a greater reliability.  It's horses for courses.

My Exige was a good example, great handling, great (bought in) engine and drivetrain, sparse seats, no carpets, no sound deadening, no cup holders, crappy stereo, manual windows, questionable Norfolk build quality, etc.  It's an extreme example but a good one.

Look at the Mitsu Evo too, most non-car people can't understand why anyone would pay $50K for a 4 door Japanese sedan, obviously a lot of that goes into the drivetrain. I'd have one in a heartbeat.

Personally I love the Cobalt, and I even mentioned it to Jeff a while ago when considering my next car.  But I am on the same side as Vman, it's a little too boy racer for an old fart with kids like me.  If I had been in my mid 20's, it would have definitely been high up my list.  There are some things GM do very well, this is one of them.

[Mitlov]

Jaeger, the Cobalt SS is much more than a fast engine.  Every review I've ever read talked about the Cobalt SS Turbo as the best-handling FWD car ever, or something along those lines.  It's really unexpected, as the base Cobalt is so miserable, but the Cobalt SS really is a remarkably-good-handling car..

Never said it couldn't handle - just said that it reeks of cheapness in any non-performance respect

This is what you wrote:

"What matters most to me from a performance standpoint is simply this: is it fun to drive?  Zero to 60 counts less than smiles per mile.  The Civic SI is a seriously fun ride - though not in the same way, obviously, as a big-torque turbo motor.  But it communicates precision, athleticism and quality to the driver.  The Cobalt communicates big power and utter bargain-basement cheapness in every other non-performance respect."

By structuring your comparison the way you did, you criticized the Cobalt SS's "precision" and "athleticism," not just its admittedly-unpleasant interior.

and of all the hot / hatch pocket / rocket type of vehicles, it would rank dead last on my purchase list.  Tell me Mitlov - would you choose this car for yourself?  Go sit in a GTI.  Then go sit in a Cobalt and tell me those two aren't galaxies apart in quality of materials alone.

Wrong question to ask someone who, for US$32,000, would rather have a 328i than an EVO X GSR.  However, even though I would rather have a 328i than an EVO X, I completely understand why the EXO X exists, and I think that for some buyers, the EVO X is the better choice.

The Cobalt SS Turbo is, for the US$22,000 market, what the EVO X is to the US$32,000 market.  Not everyone wants a totally-focused performance car, but some do. 

It's a spectrum.  Some want all premium feel (C30 T5), some what all performance (Cobalt SS Turbo), some what something in between (GTI).  I'd say that the Civic Si is somewhere between the GTI and the Cobalt SS on that spectrum.  All of them are good cars if your priorities match the car's, and all of them are bad cars if your priorities don't match the car's.

[Jaeger]

Mitlov, do give me a freakin's break.  What I said was the Cobalt communicated cheapness in any non-performance respect.  Last time I checked, handling was considered part of a vehicle's "performance" - as distinct from build quality, quality of materials or reliability.   I made no comment one way or the other about the Cobalt's handling - and specifically excluded "performance" from my criticism.  You seen determined to put words in my mouth - you should know by now that won't work.

Can this car "kick ass" on the track?  Sure.  If the most track performance for the dollar is what you're after, this might well fit the bill.  But given that I don't live on a track and actually would have to live with such a vehicle on streets and highways, where its ability to "kick the ass" of its competitors would have no meaning whatsoever, I have no interest in this vehicle whatsoever.  The quarter mile may be over in a blink, but this car could never outrun that feeling of POS cheapness.  That would be your daily companion.  No thanks.

I'm not sure what the answer to my "would you buy it?" question was.  That waffling was worthy of politician.  But it sounded something like "No."  Let me make it easier for you.  You get to have this Cobalt or a Civic SI free.  You can drive either one on the track as much as you like, but it also has to be your primary driver for 5 years.  Which one do you pick?

As I said, the Civic isn't my top pick in this segment - but I wouldn't hesitate for a nanosecond to take it over the Cobalt.  Driving the Chevy for 5 years has to be a reasonable working definition of purgatory, in my books. 

Jaeger

[Jaeger]

PS - Just came across this little pearl of wisdom you posted in another thread Mitlov:

.

Worst owner satisfaction?  Noticing a trend here.

Ten vehicles with the lowest overall satisfaction ratings: Chevy Cobalt, Dodge Caliber, Pontiac G6, Chrysler Sebring, Saturn Vue Hybrid, Chevy Equinox, Pontiac Torrent (AWD), Pontiac Torrent (FWD), Dodge Nitro, and Chevy Colorado.

Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks Cobalt ownership might just suck immensely.  It would appear that more than a few actual owners do, as well.

Jaeger

[vdk]

PS - Just came across this little pearl of wisdom you posted in another thread Mitlov:

.

Worst owner satisfaction?  Noticing a trend here.

Ten vehicles with the lowest overall satisfaction ratings: Chevy Cobalt, Dodge Caliber, Pontiac G6, Chrysler Sebring, Saturn Vue Hybrid, Chevy Equinox, Pontiac Torrent (AWD), Pontiac Torrent (FWD), Dodge Nitro, and Chevy Colorado.

Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks Cobalt ownership might just suck immensely.  It would appear that more than a few actual owners do, as well.

Jaeger

You realize those stats take into account the whole Cobalt lineup, not the SS in particular. Nice try though. Keep it up!

[Jaeger]

PS - Just came across this little pearl of wisdom you posted in another thread Mitlov:

.

Worst owner satisfaction?  Noticing a trend here.

Ten vehicles with the lowest overall satisfaction ratings: Chevy Cobalt, Dodge Caliber, Pontiac G6, Chrysler Sebring, Saturn Vue Hybrid, Chevy Equinox, Pontiac Torrent (AWD), Pontiac Torrent (FWD), Dodge Nitro, and Chevy Colorado.

Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks Cobalt ownership might just suck immensely.  It would appear that more than a few actual owners do, as well.

Jaeger

You realize those stats take into account the whole Cobalt lineup, not the SS in particular. Nice try though. Keep it up!

Yeah, the SS is in really good company. 

Jaeger

[Vmango]

Jaeger:

You've made it perfectly clear that you dislike the Cobalt SS. That's fine. I don't think anyone here is out to convince you otherwise.

However, we're just trying to show you that there is indeed a perspective whereby one would find the Cobalt SS a suitable choice. To answer your above question - if I was to get either the Si or the SS "free" I would take the SS. Of course, as you can see, I would take the WRX over both. The whole point of this derailed topic was just to make the point that - for the price - the Cobalt SS is a viable option when compared to the Si.

Instead of merely saying, "fair enough, I understand but it's not for me," you've gone off on some tangent to try and convince us that the Cobalt is completely unsuitable for anyone to purchase.

The Cobalt sure does have its faults. However, for the consumer looking for a performance package that cannot be beat for the price - the Cobalt SS is compelling.

Is it compelling to you? No. Are there buyers who would disagree with you? Of course.

I think it's completely unfair for you to post some general statistic about Cobalt ownership satisfaction. The Cobalt SS and the car from which it's derived are almost two separate products.

We're not idiots because we like the Cobalt SS over the Si. We just have a different taste in cars and a different list of features which are important to us. As part of the enthusiast dialogue I think it's important to bring up these perspectives.

[Jaeger]

Instead of merely saying, "fair enough, I understand but it's not for me," you've gone off on some tangent to try and convince us that the Cobalt is completely unsuitable for anyone to purchase.

I see you subscribe to the Mitlovian school of misquoting.  Here's what I said:

Can this car "kick ass" on the track?  Sure.  If the most track performance for the dollar is what you're after, this might well fit the bill.  But given that I don't live on a track and actually would have to live with such a vehicle on streets and highways, where its ability to "kick the ass" of its competitors would have no meaning whatsoever, I have no interest in this vehicle whatsoever.  The quarter mile may be over in a blink, but this car could never outrun that feeling of POS cheapness.  That would be your daily companion.  No thanks.

That certainly allows for the fact that this car might appeal to track-minded purchasers with a desire to inflict "ass-kickings" upon the competition, does it not?  Was this "ass-kicking" ability not touted as one of the primary virtues of the SS by some of its more vocal supporters?  Allow me to refresh your memory:

Erik. I agree with you. I never really let a "lack of respect" get to me. It was always enjoyable when I dusted guys who had no idea what just hit them. I would always just get the usual anti-GM comments. It's annoying.

The interior had a lot of hard plastics. Other than that - It was certainly good enough. I don't think the Civic Si is just for the Fast and Furious crew. At least here in Canada I see many older gentlemen driving Civic Sis (40-50+)

At this stage of my life I'm not that much of an "interior man." Handling, speed, and fun-factor all rank higher for me. After all, my dream car is a Corvette Zo6. Driving a Zo6 must be the same as driving the Cobalt SS. You can probably kick everyone's ass, but people are always going to give you a hard time.

My Cobalt was modified and put out about 250BHP. You could hear the supercharger whine from a mile away. It was glorious. I loved that car. The turbo one is even faster.

All I'm saying is that for those who are insecure in what the drive, they'd probably opt for the Si over the SS. That's all.

EDIT: Jaeger's putz post is the exact thing I'm talking about. Complete lack of respect. Clueless.

Hey wait a minute - that was YOU wasn't it?? 

And I don't think the bottom-of-the-heap rating for the Cobalt is irrelevant to the discussion.  It's the kind of thing I woud look to as a prospective purchaser.  Could the SS be the rose-among-thorns of Cobalt models -  a shining exception to the rule of owner DISsatisfaction with this car?  Sure.  Doesn't seem really likely to me, though.  Does it seem likely to you?

And finally, it is more than a little bit laughable that you should try to claim the moral high ground as the voice of reasonable discussion when your response to my post was to call me a clueless putz and to characterize Civic SI purchasers as "insecure".  Dude, please.

Jaeger

[Vmango]

Jaeger:

Listen, I understand you're the type of personality that needs to have the last "right" word in every thread in which you comment. I was merely trying to put out an olive branch to allow for this never ending back-and-forth argument to cease.

The only reason I called your post a putz-post because you went off and made comments about the Cobalt (in respect to the Si) that were completely off-base. You've gone off and based your argument on general feelings about the Cobalt - and at best your experience of sitting in one at a car show. You're the type of guy that forms opinions before obtaining any intimate familiarity with the things in which you're basing opinions. 

You've never driven a Cobalt SS - especially not for any extended period of time. At the very least, I'm basing my argument on a test-drive comparison. I've had the opportunity to test drive the Si three times over a period of a few years (accounting for over an hour of seat time). In no way, shape, or fashion, should anyone have such strong opinions about a car without at least driving it. I mean, puh-lease. The errors in your commentary reflect your lack of knowledge and familiarity with the Cobalt SS. Really, it's apparent you're basing your opinion on your general dislike for American car manufacturers and a few arm-chair perspectives and stereotypes. I mean, you're throwing out general user-satisfaction reports to try and get across your point. Really?

You weren't even aware of the performance qualities of the Cobalt SS before getting involved in this argument. It's people like you that just write off some of these products without even knowing a thing about them - let alone actually trying the product out. If you completely dislike a car that's totally fine. At least give yourself an objective perspective by driving the product before running your know-it-all mouth.

You confused moral high-ground with me just wanting this silly back-and-forth argument to end. There's no point in arguing with people like you, because, regardless of the facts your opinion would never change and you're too stubborn to even understand what perspectives others may have.

I've said all I need to in regards to this thread and will not comment further. If you'd like to take it over and get your needed last word - be my guest.

[Jaeger]

You'll have to forgive me if I didn't recognize your attempt to misquote me and put words in my mouth as an "olive branch".  I've just never seen one that looked quite like that.

Oh, and just so you gain some insight into the metaphor, "extending an olive branch" loses it's accepted meaning if you take it and whack the other guy over the head.  "Running your know-it-all mouth." Gee, that olive branch is looking a lot like a 2 by 4. 

I notice you didn't answer my question as to whether YOU think the SS likely represents the exception to the rule of dissatisfied Cobalt owners.  But since the answer is both self-evident and unhelpful to your cause, I'm not surprised.

Have a nice day. 

Jaeger

[Vmango]

Yes, I think the Cobalt SS would constitute an exception.

I was a member of a few Cobalt SS enthusiast groups and everyone, including myself, loved their car.

[6 spd honda accord owner]

The honda civic si is a fun car to drive. One big disappointment for Canadians is that you cant buy the car with a factory navigation system like you can in the US even though the US car is built in Ontario.. Even the new GTI has factory nav as an option.

[vdk]

Yes, I think the Cobalt SS would constitute an exception.

I was a member of a few Cobalt SS enthusiast groups and everyone, including myself, loved their car.

It's a waste of time man. The guy's never driven the car, he doesn't know what he's talking about.