Topic: More bad press for Toyota

[weebl]

Ding ding ding! I really would like to see everyone here how they would react with a gas pedal stuck to the floor, going 140-150-160km/h, engine making a lot of noise, and passengers screaming for their life. It's easy to sit at a keyboard and say "well it's easy, put in neutral and press the brakes". When panic sets in, the "well it's easy" solutions go out the door.

It's like escaping a vehice being submerged in water. Everyone know you need to roll down the windows as you won't be able to open the door... but to do this, you have the NOT panic and remain calm. Easier said than done.

I can attest to the "panic" situation.  We were in a car crash last summer, and I was the only one of us able to get out of the vehicle by myself unassisted.  The car was resting on a 45 degree angle on its right side.  I tried opening the driver's door first, and kept trying to open it, despite the fact the whole latch system was facked, and I'm sure metal scrunched around enough so that you couldn't open it even if the latches did work.  Took me a while (probably only 20 seconds in reality) to figure out I could just climb out of the busted out window instead, but for someone who really panics, would they even ever have been able to figure that out?

I honestly don't know what is wrong with the Toyotas making the news.  I don't have a hate-on or a love-on for Toyotas either.  We have one of their vans, and I sure hope that they have isolated the issue, as I wouldn't want it to be affecting my vehicle.  But I can believe there are enough people around who have no clue what to do if their vehicle were suddenly to go out of control, whether it's a Toyota or any other make.

My dad had something happen to him quite similar quite a while back.  His 1992 Sentra (all mechanical throttle, not drive by wire) had the throttle cable snap and the throttle was stuck in an open position, causing the car to continue accelerating.  He finally just stomped on the brakes with all his might until it stopped, then turned it off.  I asked him afterwards why he didn't just shift to neutral first, and he said he was in such a panic, he didn't think of it.

As for the Prius driver, I drove one of those as a rental a few months back (okay, so it was a newer version, but I also drove a first gen one many years ago that was in the fleet where I worked).  Everything in it is electronic, the shifter, push to start button, etc.  I don't know enough about how these cars are set up, but it is very likely he couldn't just shift to neutral as the ECU may have just ignored it.  Also, you do need to hold the push to start button down for a couple of seconds, plus there is likely an interlock feature requiring the car be in park or neutral.  Anyone's call whether he didn't know what to do or he did, but those things just weren't working.

If what I am hearing and reading about these cars are correct, it is making my initial suspicions that it is an ECU related problem seem more and more possible.

[johngenx]

Just because something is electronic doesn't mean it causes multiple systems failures at once.  The throttle failing, and of course, in the wide open position (odd they never fail closed, or anything other than full, huh?) AND the shifter circuit failing, again so that the transmission is locked into gear, AND the brakes failing, and...

Why do manufacturers send most of the UA car to the US?  Is this a terrorist plot to kill Americans?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Saw on news yesterday about Prius that accelerated uncontrollably. I suspect this story is just a bunch of BS.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/03/09/california-prius-freeway.html?ref=rss

- He had was able to call 911 and continue along until cops could respond and catch up to him. How long did that take? 15 or 20 minutes?
- In all this time the 61 year old man never thought of putting car in neutral? Come on!!!!
- Brakes did not stop the car.
- Reports on news say that police cruiser got in front of Prius and braked to help it stop. Yet I did not see any damage to front bumper. Holly crap. I just look at my bumpers the wrong way and the scratch.
- During an interview the driver stated that he tried to pull the accelerator pedal up by hand. Ah come on ! A 61 year old going 90 miles an hour can bend down and pull on accelerator pedal. I think he should call Cirque de Soliel as they always can use a good contortionist.

I think this is a bunch of crap. Just someone trying to cash in or get his 15 minutes of fame. The media laps this crap up because they are having a feeding frenzy with Toyota's problems.

This is just getting stupid. I feel sorry to Toyota.

As Mythbusters say, the story is at least plausible.

The Prius has a planetary gearset, not a traditional transmission. IIRC there isn’t a mechanical linkage; neutral is determined by the ECU and solenoids.

NHTSA has shown, with the ES350 at least, that repeated application of the brakes at WOT depletes the vacuum reserve, after which 250lbs of pedal pressure are required to overcome the engine at WOT. To complicate things on the Prius, the regenerative braking system is engaged first, then the mechanical brakes are engaged if more rapid deceleration is required, all controlled by the ECU. The cop behind the Prius has stated that he saw the brake lights come on and off repeatedly, and smelt the brakes burning.

From what I’ve read, the police car only contacted the Prius at lower speeds, and probably wasn’t necessary.

My 70 year old Dad easily moved his floor mats while sat behind the wheel of his Aveo (cheap plastic mats moved around a lot), why shouldn’t a 61 year old be able to reach his in a roomier car?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Just because something is electronic doesn't mean it causes multiple systems failures at once.  The throttle failing, and of course, in the wide open position (odd they never fail closed, or anything other than full, huh?) AND the shifter circuit failing, again so that the transmission is locked into gear, AND the brakes failing, and...

Why do manufacturers send most of the UA car to the US?  Is this a terrorist plot to kill Americans?

It doesn't have to be multiple failures. If the ECU is getting a faulty reading that the throttle pedal is matted, somewhere in the 100,000 lines of code, there could conditions met that prevent neutral from being selected. Once that happens, the vaccum drop and multiple brake applications, the driver has to exert a huge amount of force to overcome the engine.

If the throttle failed closed, the chance of an accident wouldn't really be as great now would it?

[Leviathan]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/03/10/rowlands.runaway.prius.cnn?hpt=T2

He says that the floor mat had nothing to do with the incident. He also says that he doesn't have a problem with Toyota but does with the Prius.

Edit: full 911 call here: http://jalopnik.com/5489687/the-full-24+minutes+long-runaway-prius-911-tape

[CatsEye68]

The pin head who was driving "the Prius" has already retained a lawyer to sue Toyota.  Even though he had the time and ability to call the cops, weave thru traffic at 90 mph for 30 miles, he needed the cop to tell him to turn off the motor.

At least you aren't contending that the driver was suicidal this time. I guess we should be thankful for small favors.

You shouldn't have to have the skills of a Michael Schumacher in order to safely drive your car to the mall.

[DrJay]

The title of this thread is redundant.  This is just the beginning.  There will be no way to know what incidents are real and what are either outright lies to hide driver error or someone mistaking the pedal, or whatever.  Toyota needs to brace for an onslaught that is going to be 1000X worse than Audi.

They can install "failsafe" software that shuts the engine off throws the gas pedal out the window, and there will be no shortage of incidents.  It won't make a lick of difference.  Toyota has the bulls-eye painted all over them.

That's not really true. In the ES350 incident for example, the brakes had obviously been overheated, the discs were blue, the pads and brake fluid were burnt. In the case of the Prius above, the cops trailing it could see the brake lights and smelt the brakes.

Of course there are going to be people trying to pull a fast one, but proper investigations should weed them out. Toyota is finally bringing over more of the "black-box" readers, which may shed more light on the issue.

The fact remains that similar incidents simply can't happen in a Nissan because of their brake interlock.

Meh ... give one to that dude who did the test on the toyota to prove it was the electronics i'm sure he could find a way to make the Nissan fail too ....

[DrJay]

Just because something is electronic doesn't mean it causes multiple systems failures at once.  The throttle failing, and of course, in the wide open position (odd they never fail closed, or anything other than full, huh?) AND the shifter circuit failing, again so that the transmission is locked into gear, AND the brakes failing, and...

Why do manufacturers send most of the UA car to the US?  Is this a terrorist plot to kill Americans?

What? you didn't know? BinLaden has been hiding out as head of product development for Toyota.

[dr_spock]

My dad had something happen to him quite similar quite a while back.  His 1992 Sentra (all mechanical throttle, not drive by wire) had the throttle cable snap and the throttle was stuck in an open position, causing the car to continue accelerating.  He finally just stomped on the brakes with all his might until it stopped, then turned it off.  I asked him afterwards why he didn't just shift to neutral first, and he said he was in such a panic, he didn't think of it.

Interesting.  The throttle cable in my old 1988 Sentra snapped too.  Fortunately I wasn't in the car at the time.  It scared my friend though.  She had no acceleration in the middle of traffic but she was able to pull to the side of the road and stopped safely.   It happened before the days of the Internet, no news story going viral nor Nissan forced to recall Sentras.

[articsteve]

The Pruis "incident" was a pure hoax and hopefully this loser will be charged with creating a public nuisance once the car is cleared.

The Police car never touched the car.  The idiot slowed down after receiving instructions from the cop to apply the brakes, shift into neutral.  It was all a performance.

Here is a short vid of the goof doing one of his press conferences.  In the vid he is wearing a jacket with the California Corvette Club logo with his name on it.

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/prius-runaway-story-raises-suspicion-27469.html

James Sikes was identified in a 2006 newspaper story as a longtime lottery player who won $55,000 and auditioned to appear on a California Lottery TV game show. Another unconfirmed report indicates that Sikes filed Chapter 7 bankruptcy in 2008, and faced federal and state tax liens.

[Schmengie]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the argument that repeated application of the brakes at WOT would cause vacuum depletion applies to a car like the Prius. That car can run on batteries alone, which means that while it's in that mode there is NO engine vacuum at all. That being the case, and I'm obviously no Toyota technician, I assume the power brake booster in the Prius uses a source of energy that's available all the time regardless of what mode the car's in.

In any case, 250 lbs of brake pressure to overcome a meek little four-banger like the Prius has seems a bit much to me.

[micha]

I don't know how the Prius works, but since I got a rental (Pontiac G6) right now I tried UA out. I went 40 km/h then floored it, waited for the automatic to shift down and the car to start accelerating. Then I hit the brakes while staying on the throttle and the car slowed down very quickly coming to a complete stop after only a few meters. I tried it two times and I'm sure the automatic did not apply the clutch. The car tried to accelerate. I had both paddles floored. Maybe the Prius is different, but there is no way that that Lexus couldn't stop.

[MKII]

On Friday, an employee of a San Diego dealership was driving his 2006 Lexus IS 350 when he tapped the accelerator to beat a yellow light, Cordes reports. When he took his foot from the gas pedal, the car didn't slow down but continued to speed up. He put the car in neutral and coasted to the next traffic light. With the car in neutral, the driver tapped the gas pedal three times before the engine returned to normal. The car is on lockdown until federal investigators check it next week.
**************************************************************
This is a good one - Carolyn Kimbrell, 59, a retired office assistant in Whitesville, Ky., told the AP her 2006 Toyota Avalon accelerated around the same time as she was returning with her 9-year-old granddaughter from a trip to the mall. The incident occurred a week after her dealer inserted a metal piece into the gas pedal mechanism on Feb. 20 to eliminate the friction blamed for the pedal problems.

The dealer said her car wasn't covered by the floor mat recall, but agreed to do that fix after she reported the latest incident, she said.

Now she wonders if the company's remedies will solve the problem. "It just scares you," Kimbrell said


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_162-20000234-503983.html

Hey Steve I expect a full background check of these two idiots ASAP, make sure they have paid their taxes etc 

[johngenx]

It's coming.  Hundreds of them.  Thousands.  The more on TV, the more that will come.

[Shnak]

I don't know how the Prius works, but since I got a rental (Pontiac G6) right now I tried UA out. I went 40 km/h then floored it, waited for the automatic to shift down and the car to start accelerating. Then I hit the brakes while staying on the throttle and the car slowed down very quickly coming to a complete stop after only a few meters. I tried it two times and I'm sure the automatic did not apply the clutch. The car tried to accelerate. I had both paddles floored. Maybe the Prius is different, but there is no way that that Lexus couldn't stop.

And that's EXACTLY why I'll never buy a daily rental vehicle! 

Good info though. 

[footlong58]

It's coming.  Hundreds of them.  Thousands.  The more on TV, the more that will come.

Exactly.  And me thinks that 99% of Toyota buyers are the type that go by what they hear on the news...

If Toyota had real enthusiasts for customers, they might be ok.  But they have "regular" folk, for customers.  Perception is 99% of the problem.

[DrJay]

It's coming.  Hundreds of them.  Thousands.  The more on TV, the more that will come.

Exactly.  And me thinks that 99% of Toyota buyers are the type that go by what they hear on the news...

If Toyota had real enthusiasts for customers, they might be ok.  But they have "regular" folk, for customers.  Perception is 99% of the problem.

I'll buy that ... but then how do you explain a nearly 14% jump in sales in spite of all the problems?

[vdk]

It's coming.  Hundreds of them.  Thousands.  The more on TV, the more that will come.

Exactly.  And me thinks that 99% of Toyota buyers are the type that go by what they hear on the news...

If Toyota had real enthusiasts for customers, they might be ok.  But they have "regular" folk, for customers.  Perception is 99% of the problem.

I'll buy that ... but then how do you explain a nearly 14% jump in sales in spite of all the problems?

0% financing...

[footlong58]

It's coming.  Hundreds of them.  Thousands.  The more on TV, the more that will come.

Exactly.  And me thinks that 99% of Toyota buyers are the type that go by what they hear on the news...

If Toyota had real enthusiasts for customers, they might be ok.  But they have "regular" folk, for customers.  Perception is 99% of the problem.

I'll buy that ... but then how do you explain a nearly 14% jump in sales in spite of all the problems?

0% financing...

Exactly... GM sold garbage for years using this formula...   Money talks.

[Erik]

Exactly... GM sold garbage for years using this formula...   Money talks.

Which seems to be exactly how Toyota is selling it's garbage now.