Topic: "Shame on You, Toyota"

[carcrazy]

No they aren't programmed, it is all a mathematical system that creates the code automatically in a logic system.

I asked a Toyota engineer that works on control systems specifically about how testing works on these systems and he explained this to me I was little thrown off because I thought it was coded and software tested but it is not.

So when you flash the ECM, TCM etc. what does this mean? 

I think Toyota uses a different system. RR mentioned you can't reflash a Lexus ECU.

Abacus?

[vdk]

No they aren't programmed, it is all a mathematical system that creates the code automatically in a logic system.

I asked a Toyota engineer that works on control systems specifically about how testing works on these systems and he explained this to me I was little thrown off because I thought it was coded and software tested but it is not.

So when you flash the ECM, TCM etc. what does this mean? 

I think Toyota uses a different system. RR mentioned you can't reflash a Lexus ECU.

Abacus?

Programming system. That's what I meant.

[carcrazy]

No they aren't programmed, it is all a mathematical system that creates the code automatically in a logic system.

I asked a Toyota engineer that works on control systems specifically about how testing works on these systems and he explained this to me I was little thrown off because I thought it was coded and software tested but it is not.

So when you flash the ECM, TCM etc. what does this mean? 

I think Toyota uses a different system. RR mentioned you can't reflash a Lexus ECU.

Abacus?

Programming system. That's what I meant.

This is interesting. How is this system different from other manufacturers? Is there any other manufacturer that uses a similar system?
I thought the car control modules use an embedded real-time OS for which manufacturers develop their proprietary code.

[tpl]

For some reason I thought my Audi A4 (2000) used a Moto 68030 for the cpu in the ECU. An old but trusty processor.

Reading the above posts, and having done some programming on embedded systems ( many!) years ago, I would have thought that a  regular mass produced CPU with programming in ROM  and a minimal amount of RAM for "learning" and Black box functions would be the easiest and cheapest way. Probably running some Unix like OS for reliability and availability of SDEs.
But maybe that sort of thing is too expensive when you need a couple of million of them


 I am not familiar at all with the protocols used over the various buses between components but given the conservatism in the industry one would guess at some token passing protocol.

[wing]

No they aren't programmed, it is all a mathematical system that creates the code automatically in a logic system.

I asked a Toyota engineer that works on control systems specifically about how testing works on these systems and he explained this to me I was little thrown off because I thought it was coded and software tested but it is not.

Are you saying that the ECU behaviour is not testable?

They use a statistical method to traverse each function / line of code is how it sounded they were pretty vague.  But not in the traditional software test roll that I am use to.

[vdk]

You know if other manufacturers use a completely different type of software?

[wing]

No clue unfortunately.

[Shnak]

I think that anyone who uses Windows can see how easily electronics can be badly programmed, with unintended results.

Windows isn't electronic.

[carcrazy]

You know if other manufacturers use a completely different type of software?

I had the ECM and TCM on both my Mazda and Mitsubishi flashed. I'm not sure if this is an indication that these manufacturers use a different system.

[vdk]

You know if other manufacturers use a completely different type of software?

I had the ECM and TCM on both my Mazda and Mitsubishi flashed. I'm not sure if this is an indication that these manufacturers use a different system.

Flashed as in reflashed with aftermarket software? If so VWs, Audis, BMWs, Volvos, Porsches can be reflashed also.

[tpl]

I think that anyone who uses Windows can see how easily electronics can be badly programmed, with unintended results.

Windows isn't electronic.

Right!  And Windows, even Windows 7 would NEVER pass the testing required to use as an embedded ROMable  OS without a rewrite... although I think the mobile/phone version must be closer.

[wing]

I deal with 5 - 9's systems which means it has to work 99.999% of the time and that's not enough for automotive applications.  Windows wouldn't even come close.

[vdk]

FBI Raids Three Toyota Suppliers
Published Feb 24, 2010

DETROIT — Three Michigan-based suppliers to Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. were raided today by the FBI, The Wall Street Journal is reporting.

The Journal reports FBI search warrants were carried out on Yazaki North America in Canton, Denso International America Inc., in Southfield and Tokai Rika, also known as Tram, in Plymouth.

Denso confirmed to the Journal that it was inspected by the FBI and said the investigation was based on allegations of violations of antitrust laws.

Denso supplies accelerator pedals for several Toyota vehicles. Toyota also uses pedals from supplier CTS. CTS pedal-equipped Toyotas are subject to the current unintended-acceleration recall, Denso pedal cars are not subject to the recall.

Yazaki Corp. supplies electronic components to Toyota.

Today in Washington is the second day of congressional hearings investigating Toyota's massive recalls. Secretary of State Ray LaHood testified today: "We will get in the weeds on this to find out if electronics are part of the problem," said LaHood. "If we find a problem, we will make sure it's resolved."

Inside Line says: Toyota's troubles are getting uglier by the minute. — Kelly Toepke, News Editor

[carcrazy]

You know if other manufacturers use a completely different type of software?

I had the ECM and TCM on both my Mazda and Mitsubishi flashed. I'm not sure if this is an indication that these manufacturers use a different system.

Flashed as in reflashed with aftermarket software? If so VWs, Audis, BMWs, Volvos, Porsches can be reflashed also.

No, OEM; both for transmission tweaks.

[dr_spock]

I think that anyone who uses Windows can see how easily electronics can be badly programmed, with unintended results.

Windows isn't electronic.

But you can use Windows Embedded for your automotive needs.

Windows Embedded Automotive is a standardized software platform for developing in-vehicle communication, entertainment, and service enabled location based solutions. It includes a large set of integrated, tested, and flexible middleware components, as well as hundreds of components available with Windows Embedded CE 6.0 R3, enabling Windows Embedded Automotive–based systems to scale across a broad range of automotive makes and models. Windows Embedded Automotive extends customers’ lifestyles into the vehicles they drive.

[normancw]

But you can use Windows Embedded for your automotive needs.

I'd be worried about getting a BSOD

[vdk]

You know if other manufacturers use a completely different type of software?

I had the ECM and TCM on both my Mazda and Mitsubishi flashed. I'm not sure if this is an indication that these manufacturers use a different system.

Flashed as in reflashed with aftermarket software? If so VWs, Audis, BMWs, Volvos, Porsches can be reflashed also.

No, OEM; both for transmission tweaks.

Then yes of course. I'm sure Toyota can do that on its cars. Third parties can't.