Author Topic: Euro switch to gas  (Read 2069 times)

Offline madjak30

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 03:29:22 am »

Why do hybrids sell so well in North america? There certainly is no cost advantage there. The answer is related to what people think they are saving money with and just plain old fads. People have a very hard time looking at things over the long term and accurately weighing the advantages and disadvantages of something.

Another comment I will make is that any advantages that a diesel had over a gas engine are less today that they were at most points over the last twenty years. Gas engines have made huge strides over the last decade and are on the verge of making even more. Diesels in some regards have had to take a few steps back.


I agree.  I just don't get where the advantage of the hybrids are in the winter here in Canada over an equivalent compact car.  The Prius for example, which I do like, is similar to a Corolla or Matrix except for the over $10,000 premium to purchase.

And diesels, unless you keep them for long periods or put a lot of kms on them in a short time, they really don't make sense either.  They cost more, yes the resale is higher, but if you are only puting on 15k to 20k per year and "upgrading" after two or three years, they probably are not the correct vehicle either.  Deisels are meant to live long, be durable, and reliable.

And as for electric vehicles, I don't see them being viable for some time here...if you have a couple of kids in the car and needed to drive to "mom's place" across town in -35C weather in the evening, would you take the chance of running out of charge half way there...I know I wouldn't...heater on, headlights on, etc...I'd pay for the fuel and drive the gas mobile there and back...
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Offline MKII

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2010, 05:51:37 am »
2009 Euro petrol sales gaining market share is due to market conditions. People had less money and purchased cheaper smaller cars. In general smaller cars are petrol/gas engine equipped, because thats what the market dictates, and the larger cars are purchased with diesel engines.

I predict in the next 10 years EU market will move to higher sales of petrol, one of the reasons the cost to develop petrol engines to meet these new co2 requirements will be lower then the costs to develop the diesel engines.
At least that is what the car manufacturers are saying at this time.
Also manufacturers must find ways to reduce weight, and it is much easier to find ways to shave weight from a petrol engine then a diesel engine. Midsize and larger car sales dropped significantly in 2009, whereas super-mini A-class and mini B-class car sales increased big time.

The other issue is that diesel price per litre is almost on par with petrol in most EU countries, whereas in UK diesel is higher then petrol, hence the reason why diesel has not been as popular as the petrol engine cars in the UK

BTW, regarding the fines levied @ the manufacturers for not meeting co2 regs are

Manufacturers will face major fines if they miss these targets.
These fines are based on the excess emission premium multiplied by the volume of
registrations.
The premium will be €1 for the first gram over target,
€10 for the second gram,
€25 for the third gram and
€95 for four grams and above.

From 2019 the premium will be €95 for every gram missed.

So, for example, in 2012 a manufacturer missing the target by 1g and
selling one million cars will face a €1 million fine. :o
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 06:10:17 am by MKII »

Offline tpl

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2010, 06:40:58 am »
I would have thought that the Car manufacturers + their Unions + the great mass of the people who prefer cheap cars to clean cars would rise up and stop that legislation.  Modern cars are clean enough already for all practical purposes and the Co2 thing... you need Co2 to grow plants.
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Offline airbalancer

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2010, 07:48:35 am »
I agree.  I just don't get where the advantage of the hybrids are in the winter here in Canada over an equivalent compact car.  The Prius for example, which I do like, is similar to a Corolla or Matrix except for the over $10,000 premium to purchase.


I can get 4.2 l/100km on a highway in the winter time. Also fit a 6 foot ladder and other equipment inside  a Prius
A 6 foot person can seat comfortable in the rear seat without me moving the driver seat
Cannot do that with the Corolla Matrix or Escape

Offline safristi

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2010, 11:34:38 am »
..the DONKIES are pulling the CART..............................Algorites et "AL"! are defining how we spend our transport (and OTHER!!!) monies...................ONLY acceptable to "THEM" if we STFU and PRAY TO THEIR CARBON GOD who offsets our sins with dispensations directed at their causi belli and pocketbooks.............a GLOW BALLSY EFFORT and shame on them................ :'( :'( :'(
THERE IS NO CURE FOR "LOTUS"......ONLY TREATMENT.....

Offline Roddy

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2010, 12:41:17 pm »
I would have thought that the Car manufacturers + their Unions + the great mass of the people who prefer cheap cars to clean cars would rise up and stop that legislation.  Modern cars are clean enough already for all practical purposes and the Co2 thing... you need Co2 to grow plants.

If people were going to rise up in europe about anything to do with the cost of driving, it would be the extremely high gas taxes. Even this they don't seem particularly inclined to do (probably a good thing), so I really doubt they are going to be rising up over any other legislation.

Cars will never been clean enough when you have billions of people driving them. There is more than enough Co2 in the atmosphere for plants, without introducing million of tons more.

Offline safristi

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2010, 01:25:25 pm »
sez U.............. ??? :banghead: :bang: :think: :nono:..CO2 is NOT a POLLUTANT..........breath DEEPLY now and exhale................WOT!!!!! :rofl: :rofl2:

Offline Roddy

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2010, 10:11:24 pm »
sez U.............. ??? :banghead: :bang: :think: :nono:..CO2 is NOT a POLLUTANT..........breath DEEPLY now and exhale................WOT!!!!! :rofl: :rofl2:

Just because a chemical exists naturally does not mean that it's not a pollutant.

Offline blur911

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2010, 12:17:27 pm »
sez U.............. ??? :banghead: :bang: :think: :nono:..CO2 is NOT a POLLUTANT..........breath DEEPLY now and exhale................WOT!!!!! :rofl: :rofl2:

Just because a chemical exists naturally does not mean that it's not a pollutant.

I guess it depends on what you call a pollutant Saf.  As CO2 is being absorbed and is causing ocean acidification maybe in the future we won't have to worry about polluting the oceans as there won't be anything alive left in it.
People who live far away from nature seem to not notice the changes already happening in our environment and are quick to deny anything is changing.  In case you haven't noticed, on the East coast the fisheries are collapsing and storms and weather are altering the landscape at an accelerated pace.

Offline Roddy

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2010, 12:59:35 pm »
Very true

Offline safristi

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2010, 02:25:30 pm »
...Bullcrap.........swallowed whole and undigested....................do some REAL READING on the subject.......................i'm done with settled scientologists  caught in LIES daily....      sheeshh....the media and un peered reviewed crap is so embarassing anyone with a smidgen of scientific knowledge can see thru it.....................


    AGW is purely a HYPOTHESIS....look it UP....UNPROVEN.....and more so each day............making "COMPUTER MODELS" based on scams,phony readings and such,and predicated(needed)Gov Grants...is BOGUS...........prove IT with REAL SCIENCE...................instead of FUNDED AGW FUNDA-MENTALISTS...............the average person doesn't have a clue but wot's blared on the NEWS most nights...and buys it like they did the sub PRIME MORTGAGES........

Offline blur911

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2010, 06:56:51 pm »
...Bullcrap.........swallowed whole and undigested....................do some REAL READING on the subject.......................i'm done with settled scientologists  caught in LIES daily....      sheeshh....the media and un peered reviewed crap is so embarassing anyone with a smidgen of scientific knowledge can see thru it.....................


    AGW is purely a HYPOTHESIS....look it UP....UNPROVEN.....and more so each day............making "COMPUTER MODELS" based on scams,phony readings and such,and predicated(needed)Gov Grants...is BOGUS...........prove IT with REAL SCIENCE...................instead of FUNDED AGW FUNDA-MENTALISTS...............the average person doesn't have a clue but wot's blared on the NEWS most nights...and buys it like they did the sub PRIME MORTGAGES........

http://www.unescobkk.org/special-programmes/westpac/news/previous-news/scientists-confirm-oceans-acidifying-at-unprecedented-speed/

http://mit.whoi.edu/oceanus/viewArticle.do?id=65266

http://www.sfos.uaf.edu/oa/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080522-acid-oceans.html

http://atlantic-web1.ns.ec.gc.ca/slr/default.asp?lang=En

I've shown you mine, now you show me yours.  ;D

Guess in Bethlehem you didn't hear about the fisheries collapsing.

Offline mp3butt

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2010, 09:47:55 pm »
The shift from diesel to gasoline in europe has partly been attributed to the huge increase of sales of low price entry level cars, where diesel engine options would greatly increase their price tag.

I personally don't think that there's really too much advantage in diesel small cars. Sure your fuel economy is going to be moderately better, but you have a much higher initial purchase price and maintenance costs. You have to drive a heck of a long way to ever make up for the higher purchase price and diesel prices are not always lower than gasoline which further nullifies any advantage.

I concur. Just to check out the price difference between a Golf 2.5 and a Golf TDI. Unless you drive on 401 the whole day every day, it would take you years to even it out.

If I am going to  buy a diesel car, I am not doing so for fuel economy. I'll do it for performance purpose.

Mp3

Offline rrocket

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2010, 09:50:03 pm »
The shift from diesel to gasoline in europe has partly been attributed to the huge increase of sales of low price entry level cars, where diesel engine options would greatly increase their price tag.

I personally don't think that there's really too much advantage in diesel small cars. Sure your fuel economy is going to be moderately better, but you have a much higher initial purchase price and maintenance costs. You have to drive a heck of a long way to ever make up for the higher purchase price and diesel prices are not always lower than gasoline which further nullifies any advantage.

I concur. Just to check out the price difference between a Golf 2.5 and a Golf TDI. Unless you drive on 401 the whole day every day, it would take you years to even it out.

If I am going to  buy a diesel car, I am not doing so for fuel economy. I'll do it for performance purpose.

Mp3

Well I disagree with the whole "years to even it out".  What if you buy a car with a bigger stereo or nav.  How many years does it take to even that out over the base model?  What about sport wheels?  Ever get your money back on those?  I consider a diesel just another engine option...much like buying a 6 banger over a 4 cylinder....and nobody ever gripes about the payback then...
How fast is my Supra?  I sh*t on Cessnas from a roll....

Offline mp3butt

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Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2010, 09:51:28 pm »

Why do hybrids sell so well in North america? There certainly is no cost advantage there. The answer is related to what people think they are saving money with and just plain old fads. People have a very hard time looking at things over the long term and accurately weighing the advantages and disadvantages of something.

Another comment I will make is that any advantages that a diesel had over a gas engine are less today that they were at most points over the last twenty years. Gas engines have made huge strides over the last decade and are on the verge of making even more. Diesels in some regards have had to take a few steps back.


I agree.  I just don't get where the advantage of the hybrids are in the winter here in Canada over an equivalent compact car.  The Prius for example, which I do like, is similar to a Corolla or Matrix except for the over $10,000 premium to purchase.

And diesels, unless you keep them for long periods or put a lot of kms on them in a short time, they really don't make sense either.  They cost more, yes the resale is higher, but if you are only puting on 15k to 20k per year and "upgrading" after two or three years, they probably are not the correct vehicle either.  Deisels are meant to live long, be durable, and reliable.

And as for electric vehicles, I don't see them being viable for some time here...if you have a couple of kids in the car and needed to drive to "mom's place" across town in -35C weather in the evening, would you take the chance of running out of charge half way there...I know I wouldn't...heater on, headlights on, etc...I'd pay for the fuel and drive the gas mobile there and back...

I guess the solution fo us is to sit tight and wait for the Ford Fiesta/Mazda 2 to come. Fun commuting while green to the environment