Author Topic: Euro switch to gas  (Read 2069 times)

Offline airbalancer

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Cobourg Ontario
  • Posts: 15975
  • Carma: +92/-89
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2000 BMW 323, 2010 Toyota Prius, 2011Chevy Silverado LTZ
Euro switch to gas
« on: February 13, 2010, 08:33:57 am »
For small cars it appears EU is switch to gas, with smaller engines

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/02/acea-20100204.html

Significant change was also noted in the market shares of 4x4s (from 9.0% to 7.7%) and diesel cars (from 52.7% to 45.3%), according to figures from the European Automobile Manufacturers’s Association

Offline DrJay

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Location: Guelph, On
  • Posts: 418
  • Carma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2010, 11:02:18 am »
For small cars it appears EU is switch to gas, with smaller engines

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/02/acea-20100204.html

Significant change was also noted in the market shares of 4x4s (from 9.0% to 7.7%) and diesel cars (from 52.7% to 45.3%), according to figures from the European Automobile Manufacturers’s Association

Interesting.  Did they cite or speculate on any reasons for this shift?
DrJay.

Offline airbalancer

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Cobourg Ontario
  • Posts: 15975
  • Carma: +92/-89
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2000 BMW 323, 2010 Toyota Prius, 2011Chevy Silverado LTZ
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2010, 11:19:39 am »
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/20091215_ER_0911_2009_III_Q1-3.pdf

here a 190 page report
take a look and get back to us  ;D

Offline DrJay

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Location: Guelph, On
  • Posts: 418
  • Carma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2010, 11:22:27 am »
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/20091215_ER_0911_2009_III_Q1-3.pdf

here a 190 page report
take a look and get back to us  ;D

Thanks ..but i'm not that motivated. ;D

Offline G35X

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Location: W. Vancouver, BC
  • Posts: 313
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2010, 01:58:02 pm »
Just when automakers thought they were able to clean up inherently dirty diesel emissions with urea injection and DPF (as far as NOx and soot are concerned), they are now faced with very tough CO2 emission regulation.  CO2 is the product of fuel combustion and its amount increases in proportion to the amount of fuel burned.  CO2 was not considered harmful before.  But now the hysteria of global warming made it politically correct for politicians to scream “CO2 is bad”.  Cat converters cannot reduce the amount of CO2 emission. The only way is to burn less fuel.  Come 2012 automakers will face the new CAFE requirement of 120 grams CO2 per one kilometer of running, which translates to about 19.3 km/litre or 5.2 litres/100 km. There will be a stiff penalty for not meeting this requirement: 95 euros/gram per car.  So, if an automaker wants to sell a high-performance car whose gas mileage is 10km/liter (10 litres/100km) for example, it must dilute it with a 30km/litre(3.3litres/100km) fuel sipper to avoid the penalty.  Automakers have found that small displacement diesel engines did not come cheap with common-rail injection, DPF, urea injection and cat converters.  They found it is cheaper to combine small-displacement gas engine with a 3-way cat and electric motor to meet the requirement.  Thence, sudden shift to gas engine with an eye to hybridization.  Renault’s strong interest in EV is also in line with this CO2 regulation.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 06:02:13 pm by G35X »

Offline safristi

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Bethlehem
  • Posts: 40872
  • Carma: +141/-51
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2010, 02:08:24 pm »
..that's wot 'appens when ya lets POLITICIANS/SCAREMONGERS ahead of the REALITY CURVE.........................there is no magic wand.....tho' the GREEN POLICE have a cunning stunt of pulling out the BATONS and pretending there are.............................. :-\ :'( :'(.....


...we all live (or shall) in a YELLOW SUBMARINE...............under a sea of   amatuer phishosophly!...
THERE IS NO CURE FOR "LOTUS"......ONLY TREATMENT.....

Offline PJungnitsch

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Edmonton, AB
  • Posts: 3042
  • Carma: +8/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Travel in Africa
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2010, 02:18:15 pm »
I think what is happening is advances in gas engine technology like direct injection are giving them near diesel fuel economy and torque.

Offline EV Dan

  • Drunk on Fuel
  • ****
  • Location: Toronto
  • Posts: 2772
  • Carma: +5/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2010, 03:01:36 pm »
CO2 regulations in my traditionally green opinion is a good thing, and not only for environment. Lower CO2 emissions can be achieved in at least three ways. first is to further perfect the ICE technology by adding DI, turbocharging for smaller engine displacement, DSG type transmissions with more gears and so on. The second is switching to hybrids and especially to plug-in hybrids, both dealing with acceleration/ deceleration energy losses thus making the car in effect "lighter" for a given ICE engine. And the third is the most obvious at the first glance path, which can be combined with the others, is a "simple" going on a car diet. Modern cars bought by average consumers have been getting heavier for decades. Safety standards and must have toys coupled with the HP wars being the main contributors. As we know so well, bigger mass always requires higher energy input to move, on Earth anyway.  By shedding those extra pounds our car will not only save resources to produce them, use less fuel, keep the air cleaner but also be much more fun to drive.  :) My only concern is the car makers will chose instead to suit our "needs" by putting in even more safety, toys, bells and whistles and then try to compensated by adding a hybrid setup, making the vehicles even porkier, instead of just going back to basics and making a simple, high power/ weight ratio, fun to drive enthusiast car.
You don\'t find Chuck Norris, he finds you.

Offline initial_D

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Deer Red Green Lodge, Ab
  • Posts: 12378
  • Carma: +14/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2010, 03:02:52 pm »
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/20091215_ER_0911_2009_III_Q1-3.pdf

here a 190 page report
take a look and get back to us  ;D

... A to Z Z Z in less than 6 lines ...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 03:05:20 pm by initial_D »

Offline airbalancer

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Cobourg Ontario
  • Posts: 15975
  • Carma: +92/-89
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2000 BMW 323, 2010 Toyota Prius, 2011Chevy Silverado LTZ
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2010, 03:16:36 pm »
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/20091215_ER_0911_2009_III_Q1-3.pdf

here a 190 page report
take a look and get back to us  ;D

... A to Z Z Z in less than 6 lines ...

wow you made it 5 lines longer then me

Offline DrJay

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Location: Guelph, On
  • Posts: 418
  • Carma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2010, 04:18:29 pm »
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/20091215_ER_0911_2009_III_Q1-3.pdf

here a 190 page report
take a look and get back to us  ;D

... A to Z Z Z in less than 6 lines ...

wow you made it 5 lines longer then me


I didn't even try  :drool:  I gotta agree with Dan tho ..well sed and its already starting to happen (in the wrong direction) more toys, safety etc (safety aspect not such a bad thing) I get what you are saying and it makes perfect sense and in a perfect world .... makes you wonder at the manufacturers ability to read between the lines and find that balance between what people think they want and what actualy makes sense.

Offline G35X

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Location: W. Vancouver, BC
  • Posts: 313
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2010, 06:00:29 pm »
I think what is happening is advances in gas engine technology like direct injection… “ – Pjungnitsch

Yes, indeed! Among many recent advances I think the following technologies are most interesting:

1. Fiat’s Multiair (Chrysler’s Fire) electro-hydraulic variable valve control system
This is Fiat’s “better” answer to BMW’s Valvetronic.  Absence of intake butterfly valve means significantly reduced pumping loss. Precise valve opening and closure control means wide range of operation cycle modes: from Atkinson to Otto, better EGR control, better combustion with two intake valve openings per intake, friendliness to force feeding etc.

2. Direct fuel injection
This feature is especially beneficial to force feeding since fuel injected directly to cylinder wall means cooler combustion chamber and more precise fuel feed timing allowing higher geometrical compression ratio (higher than 10:1) without concern for pre-ignition.   

3. Mazda’s idling stop system
This clever use of fuel injection and crankshaft angle sensor allows gas engine to stop running at traffic signals with quick re-start.

4. Combination of Atkinson cycle engine and electric drive motor.
This hybrid design, made possible with variable valve timing system, nicely compensate for ICE’s lack of torque at low rpm range with the high torque nature of the electric motor.   

Offline Roddy

  • Learner's Permit
  • *
  • Location: Calgary
  • Posts: 91
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 12:20:32 pm »
The shift from diesel to gasoline in europe has partly been attributed to the huge increase of sales of low price entry level cars, where diesel engine options would greatly increase their price tag.

I personally don't think that there's really too much advantage in diesel small cars. Sure your fuel economy is going to be moderately better, but you have a much higher initial purchase price and maintenance costs. You have to drive a heck of a long way to ever make up for the higher purchase price and diesel prices are not always lower than gasoline which further nullifies any advantage.

Offline tpl

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Guelph On.
  • Posts: 14422
  • Carma: +32/-31
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 06:11:42 am »
In practically all EU countries diesel is cheaper than gas

If you want to see how much then go here    http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuel/     and go down to the line "December 2009" and click. That opens a PDF file with the numbers.

Given that plus the fuel economy of diesels and the longevity of a well designed diesel engine I don't see why one would buy a gas engine in the EU.

Maybe there is something in the yearly licencing costs that we don't get to hear about.
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Offline safristi

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Bethlehem
  • Posts: 40872
  • Carma: +141/-51
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 08:54:30 am »
..yeah  dont the Brits have a weird licence rating COST thingy....based on POUNDS or is it STONES ya know like how many STONE-HINGES yer car doors have................... ::) :P....

Offline vdk

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Toronto, ON
  • Posts: 4882
  • Carma: +17/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • I try and stay limber, swim, run, ride motorcycles
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 02:46:20 pm »
In practically all EU countries diesel is cheaper than gas

If you want to see how much then go here    http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuel/     and go down to the line "December 2009" and click. That opens a PDF file with the numbers.

Given that plus the fuel economy of diesels and the longevity of a well designed diesel engine I don't see why one would buy a gas engine in the EU.

Maybe there is something in the yearly licencing costs that we don't get to hear about.

Taxes on emissions, and on engine size. I think.

Offline Roddy

  • Learner's Permit
  • *
  • Location: Calgary
  • Posts: 91
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 08:07:52 pm »
In practically all EU countries diesel is cheaper than gas

If you want to see how much then go here    http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuel/     and go down to the line "December 2009" and click. That opens a PDF file with the numbers.

Given that plus the fuel economy of diesels and the longevity of a well designed diesel engine I don't see why one would buy a gas engine in the EU.

Maybe there is something in the yearly licencing costs that we don't get to hear about.

Even if it is cheaper than gas, the initial cost of a diesel engine is much higher and the maintenance is much more expensive. Sure a diesel in theory would have longer life expectancy than a gas but someone seem to have forgotten to tell a good percentage of modern diesels about this. Even if the engine its self lasts, the emission equipment alone can be very expensive to maintain.

There definitely is no cost advantage to the average person for owning a diesel.

Offline Roddy

  • Learner's Permit
  • *
  • Location: Calgary
  • Posts: 91
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 08:08:49 pm »
In practically all EU countries diesel is cheaper than gas

If you want to see how much then go here    http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuel/     and go down to the line "December 2009" and click. That opens a PDF file with the numbers.

Given that plus the fuel economy of diesels and the longevity of a well designed diesel engine I don't see why one would buy a gas engine in the EU.

Maybe there is something in the yearly licencing costs that we don't get to hear about.

Taxes on emissions, and on engine size. I think.

Yup - more specifically a tax on CO2 emissions. This is one area where diesels do have an advantage at the moment.

Offline tpl

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Guelph On.
  • Posts: 14422
  • Carma: +32/-31
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 09:15:51 pm »
In practically all EU countries diesel is cheaper than gas

If you want to see how much then go here    http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuel/     and go down to the line "December 2009" and click. That opens a PDF file with the numbers.

Given that plus the fuel economy of diesels and the longevity of a well designed diesel engine I don't see why one would buy a gas engine in the EU.

Maybe there is something in the yearly licencing costs that we don't get to hear about.

Even if it is cheaper than gas, the initial cost of a diesel engine is much higher and the maintenance is much more expensive. Sure a diesel in theory would have longer life expectancy than a gas but someone seem to have forgotten to tell a good percentage of modern diesels about this. Even if the engine its self lasts, the emission equipment alone can be very expensive to maintain.

There definitely is no cost advantage to the average person for owning a diesel.
Where are these "modern diesels" that have a short life?   In NA we see two MODERN diesels. VW 2l  and M-B  3.5l and one fairly modern diesel M-B in the Sprinter.
As for maintenance sure the oil is expensive for some of them because of the particulate trap requirements and once in a long time the injection system may need some work.

If you think there is no cost advantage to a diesel then why do they sell so well in Europe?  The Euro manufacturers make plenty of really good small gas engines as well.   Now in NA you are right for most people a diesel has little cost advantage... may be negative.

Offline Roddy

  • Learner's Permit
  • *
  • Location: Calgary
  • Posts: 91
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Euro switch to gas
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 10:31:09 pm »
In practically all EU countries diesel is cheaper than gas

If you want to see how much then go here    http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuel/     and go down to the line "December 2009" and click. That opens a PDF file with the numbers.

Given that plus the fuel economy of diesels and the longevity of a well designed diesel engine I don't see why one would buy a gas engine in the EU.

Maybe there is something in the yearly licencing costs that we don't get to hear about.

Even if it is cheaper than gas, the initial cost of a diesel engine is much higher and the maintenance is much more expensive. Sure a diesel in theory would have longer life expectancy than a gas but someone seem to have forgotten to tell a good percentage of modern diesels about this. Even if the engine its self lasts, the emission equipment alone can be very expensive to maintain.

There definitely is no cost advantage to the average person for owning a diesel.
Where are these "modern diesels" that have a short life?   In NA we see two MODERN diesels. VW 2l  and M-B  3.5l and one fairly modern diesel M-B in the Sprinter.

LOL have you followed the saga of the power stroke diesels? Worse yet, is when they fail it costs twice to three times as much to rebuild them as a gas job. Of course there in its self is nothing new about poorly made diesels. The 80's vw rabbit diesels were not particularly durable power plants nor were the olds 350 diesels or 6.2/6.5l GMC jobs. What is new is the level of complexity that is used into diesels from their complex emission systems, to their electronic injection system.  A well built diesel like you find in HD produces or even light duty engines, such as the inline 5 from MB or the cummins will give you an amazing life span, but these are hardly representative of every diesel on the market.



As for maintenance sure the oil is expensive for some of them because of the particulate trap requirements and once in a long time the injection system may need some work.

Injection system problems have hardly been in the long term on many modern diesels (reasons for this are debated but they belong in another thread).

If you think there is no cost advantage to a diesel then why do they sell so well in Europe?  The Euro manufacturers make plenty of really good small gas engines as well.   Now in NA you are right for most people a diesel has little cost advantage... may be negative.

Why do hybrids sell so well in North america? There certainly is no cost advantage there. The answer is related to what people think they are saving money with and just plain old fads. People have a very hard time looking at things over the long term and accurately weighing the advantages and disadvantages of something.

Another comment I will make is that any advantages that a diesel had over a gas engine are less today that they were at most points over the last twenty years. Gas engines have made huge strides over the last decade and are on the verge of making even more. Diesels in some regards have had to take a few steps back.