Author Topic: "Snow storm" in Toronto  (Read 4887 times)

Offline overtakeyouintheleftlane

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"Snow storm" in Toronto
« on: December 09, 2009, 07:07:13 am »
I don't know when people are ever going to learn how to drive in winter. I'm going to work this morning at 5am as I don't want to be on the road with too many people and this genius comes flying down Ellesmere Rd. in his Ford Escape (I'm doing 30km/h as the road was not plowed and very slushy), he must've been doing 50-60km/h... loses control and hits the side of his car on a tree.

I stopped and I checked on the guy, he seemed fine, so I called 911 for him. I asked him why the heck was he going so fast, he said that he thought the snow was no big deal. I had to check, no surprise he was using M+S tires, not using winter tires. Another one learns the hard way.

People need to slow down for the road conditions and for goodness sakes, clean off all of the snow on your car and put the winter tires on already! People have to stop being cheap.

I can't wait for the day tax-happy Ontario makes winter tires mandatory. That is a "tax grab" that actually makes sense. When will Ontario smarten up like Quebec has? Dumb question... look who's in charge...

Offline Loudpedal

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 12:39:01 pm »
Agreed.  My commute length was doubled today.  Single biggest contributing factor: all-season tire drivers... 1 in ditch, 1 rear ended and countless spinning tires struggling to get moving.   
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Offline EV Dan

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 12:55:20 pm »
Agreed.  My commute length was doubled today.  Single biggest contributing factor: all-season tire drivers... 1 in ditch, 1 rear ended and countless spinning tires struggling to get moving.   

That one did have winters. He stopped unexpectedly quick  ;D
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Offline Allen

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 01:03:43 pm »
I had no trouble with my M&S's today nor do I on any given day in a Toronto winter... folks in Toronto can't drive in the rain either, its not the tires, its the drivers...

Offline Railton

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 01:28:39 pm »
I had no trouble with my M&S's today nor do I on any given day in a Toronto winter... folks in Toronto can't drive in the rain either, its not the tires, its the drivers...
:iagree:
Drove the big (RWD, All Seasons) Charger in today on my 56km commute. No problems.
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Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 01:30:22 pm »
I had no trouble with my M&S's today nor do I on any given day in a Toronto winter... folks in Toronto can't drive in the rain either, its not the tires, its the drivers...

 :iagree:

Left early, took my time.  Concern I've had about reliance on technology is how it makes people complacent/dumb.  Often I've seen Explorers, RAV 4's, etc with full time four wheel drive stuck just as bad as any FWD car.  Last winter a Subaru WRX  cut me off in the middle of a blizzard - likely cause he could.

If you force everyone to drive with winters then suddenly everybody gets fearless and will STILL wind up driving faster/aggressively than conditions allow.  Then what?  Back to chains and studs?

I think the reverese should be true - everybody put BALD tires on their cars in the winter to force them to 1) think twice about if they REALLY have to be on the road and 2) when they are on the road, are 'driven' out of that false sense of security they are in.   ;)

****this advertisement courtesy the Bald Tire Resellers Association of America.


Offline weebl

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 01:57:12 pm »
When it comes to winter driving, there are two major factors I think.  One is the driver, about half of the equation.  Few out there (and the numbers seem to be getting fewer each year) who know how to drive in snow or ice.  A good driver can do reasonable on all-season tires.  An average driver, well then you've got two minues against them:  mediocre skills and ill-suited tires, a recipe for disaster.

Then there's the tire issue.  Winter tires handle ice and snow better than all-seasons.  Period.  For a good driver, they now have two pluses in their favour.  For an average driver, the winter tires will mitigate their mediocre skills.

All bets are off on the morons who think they're invincible, regardless of drivetrain (AWD, 4WD, FWD, RWD), vehicle (SUV or truck versus others) or tires (winter or all season).
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Offline mrthompson

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 03:02:10 pm »
My sister acquired a '95 Chevy Blazer 4x4 this summer from a friend.  It has Michelin All Terrain tires.  She also has a '98 Cavalier with Firestone Winterforce winter tires.  She prefers the Cavalier for anything winter dishes out except for extremely deep snow.  Even then, she admits, the Blazer would benefit from a set of winter tires.

Offline overtakeyouintheleftlane

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 03:29:24 pm »
Winter tires are the only way to go in winter.

Once you go winter tires, you never go back  :rofl2: Doesn't sound as good as once you go... you never go back.  :rofl2:

Offline Allen

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 03:37:29 pm »
I would agree if we actually had winter in TO, we have the ocassional bit of bad weather that any capable driver should be able to handle with M&S's

I have not had snow tires on a car since moving from Montreal over 30 years ago and have never had an issue or accident, If I lived outside the GTA or in a hevay snow belt I would consider snows..

I don't think I am invincible, just capable ;)

Offline evil_twin

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 03:40:22 pm »
Winter tires should be mandatory in Ontario no doubt about it.  Even if you live in Toronto with 'relatively' low levels of snow, the winter tires still provide more traction in cold temperatures.

People are just (a) cheap and (b) uneducated on tires.  Also, for anyone who owns a car for 4, 5 years or more, owning a dedicated set of winters isn't really costing you much more money as it extends the life of you summer tires.  You're just buying your first and second set of tires at the same time.

No doubt, a competent driver with relatively 'fresh' all-season tires can get by fine....but why bother?  Plus, buying winters means you can actually get good tires for summer :)  Not a compromise tire that isn't particularily good at anything.

Offline X-Traction

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 03:51:50 pm »
All bets are off on the morons who think they're invincible, regardless of drivetrain (AWD, 4WD, FWD, RWD), vehicle (SUV or truck versus others) or tires (winter or all season).

I think it's much worse than this.  Suv's and trucks have a higher centre of gravity, so there's bound to be more weight shift when initiating corners.  Not to mention the effect of generally stiffer suspensions.

Then there's the drivetrain setup.  The exact same physics behind why locked differentials must not be used on dry pavement, means that those same systems will tend to cause wheel slippage when cornering on slippery surfaces.  This includes, to a lesser extent, limited slip systems.  They all try to keep the wheels turning at the same speed, generally regardless of which side of the vehicle or which axle they're on.  But when cornering, you want the wheels to turn at different speeds.  On ice, you want them to turn freely at their different speeds, because that's when you have the best traction.

These systems are fantastic in a straight line, and good when cornering slow enough not to generate g-forces. But when cornering fast enough to put sideways forces on the tires, these systems will cause tire slippage. The "tighter" the system, the more slippage.  The more wheels slipping, the greater the probability of losing control.  Combine that with the weight shift issue.

But no one tells buyers of suv's and pickups about these things, because it's too complicated. So they add stability control systems to try to fix the problem.  People who have suv's and pickups with locking center differentials but without stabilty control, should not lock the center diff for highway driving.

Think about all the vehicles you've seen upside down in ditches in bad weather.  Mostly Suv's and pickups, right?  And mostly on corners.

When I had a '91 Pathfinder, the thing actually scared me on slippery roads, and I drove slower than sedans, not faster.

Another issue is alignment.  Any vehicle without perfect alignment is going to be skidding a bit all the time on ice or snow. This is vastly less stable than a vehicle that is not skidding any of its tires.  Basically it's somewhat out of control even before things start to go wrong.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 03:57:22 pm by X-Traction »

Offline overtakeyouintheleftlane

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 03:53:05 pm »
evil_twin  -  "Winter tires should be mandatory in Ontario no doubt about it.  Even if you live in Toronto with 'relatively' low levels of snow, the winter tires still provide more traction in cold temperatures."

"People are just (a) cheap and (b) uneducated on tires.  Also, for anyone who owns a car for 4, 5 years or more, owning a dedicated set of winters isn't really costing you much more money as it extends the life of you summer tires.  You're just buying your first and second set of tires at the same time." :iagree:

Allen - We do get winter in Toronto, we get ice, snow and cold pavement.

"I have not had snow tires on a car since moving from Montreal over 30 years ago and have never had an issue or accident" - Not smart IMO, why take the chance, it's not necessarily "your fault" if some driver cuts in front of you, however, it would be your fault for not having proper tires on. It could prevent you from hitting them. Why potentially have a not at fault crash when you can just avoid the crash itself?

Offline overtakeyouintheleftlane

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 03:55:24 pm »
Maybe tire companies would be able to sell more if they let you try identical cars, one with all-season and one with winter tires and actually try it and "feel" the difference.

Offline airbalancer

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 03:58:35 pm »
Spend an hour and half clear the the driveway in the rain, snow is to heavy to use the light duty snow blower I have
Just look out the window, the snowplow just went by  :'(

Offline BJB

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 04:01:52 pm »
I don't drive to work, I take the "better" way, the TTC. My normal 20 minute door-to-door commute began with a 47 minute wait on the platform at Summerhill waiting for a small space of real estate to open up on one of the 15+ subways that passed me by.  Once I pushed my way on, I endured a 30 minute ride on the pleasure train.  I commented to another stranded victim of the TTC that it appears as though this storm came out of nowhere and that this must be the first time it snowed in the city in 30 years, he agreed.

Offline overtakeyouintheleftlane

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 04:02:31 pm »
airbalancer  - Did mine in 10 minutes. Solution...

Online quadzilla

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 04:08:56 pm »
I would agree if we actually had winter in TO, we have the ocassional bit of bad weather that any capable driver should be able to handle with M&S's

I have not had snow tires on a car since moving from Montreal over 30 years ago and have never had an issue or accident, If I lived outside the GTA or in a hevay snow belt I would consider snows..

I don't think I am invincible, just capable ;)

If there wasn't a seat belt law, would you still wear one?

I'm all in favor of a winter tire law. I had to change over to winter before the snow as the roads were getting too cold for any traction with my 'other' season tires. I shouldn't be able to spin all the way through first AND second gear on dry roads.

As to the way people drive, some things never change. I put the bike away today and took the GO train to work instead. Then my 20 minute walk from Union Station to the office I notice a lot of people that didn't put on the winter footwear yet and danced every tiny puddle.   ::)
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Offline mrthompson

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 04:16:35 pm »
airbalancer:

Offline ktm525

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Re: "Snow storm" in Toronto
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 05:03:10 pm »
Excuse my Toronto ignorance but the weather network is showing it is currently 5 degrees and theis webcam shot of Markham (near TO?) shows wet streets. If this is a "monster" storm then I am not sure I would bother with winters either. Asking drivivers to have two sets of wheels/tires? What do apartment dwellers do? With an oversized double garage and 3 tire storage racks on the walls I still scramble for space.



Top picture is Markham. Bottom picture is some drifting in Calgary left over from the weekend. Snowing again.