Author Topic: Winter Tires  (Read 3159 times)

Offline Baba

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Winter Tires
« on: November 11, 2009, 09:04:45 pm »
1999 Mercedes C280 Sport.  Tires: 205/55 R16.

Looking to buy new Winter Tires.  Had decided on the Michelin X Ice at Costco, but they refuse to install because the tires are rated 91T whereas the OEM rating is 91H.  The difference between the H (Max speed 210 kmh) and T (Max speed 190 kmh) is only 20 kmh.  I do not intend driving even close to the 190 kmh.  Is this a big deal?  Should I stick to H or higher?  Also tried to order the Continental Extreme WinterContacts and warning came up suggesting tire rated 94, so will sacrifice ride quality. Any advice? 

Costco suggest the Michelin Primacy Alpin PA3 for $960/ everything included.

Offline davidy

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2009, 09:24:33 pm »
If you do a lot of hwy commuting or like the handling of your stock H-rated tires, then a H-rated winter performance tire is recommended. Heard good reviews on the Toyo Garit KX (94H), Toyo Snowprox S952 (91H) or Dunlop Winter Sport 3D (91H). It doesn't appear that Hankook IceBear W300 or Falken Eurowinter HS439 are available in your tire size.

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Offline rrocket

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2009, 09:27:22 pm »
1999 Mercedes C280 Sport.  Tires: 205/55 R16.

Looking to buy new Winter Tires.  Had decided on the Michelin X Ice at Costco, but they refuse to install because the tires are rated 91T whereas the OEM rating is 91H.  The difference between the H (Max speed 210 kmh) and T (Max speed 190 kmh) is only 20 kmh.  I do not intend driving even close to the 190 kmh.  Is this a big deal?  Should I stick to H or higher?  Also tried to order the Continental Extreme WinterContacts and warning came up suggesting tire rated 94, so will sacrifice ride quality. Any advice? 

Costco suggest the Michelin Primacy Alpin PA3 for $960/ everything included.


Stupid, stupid policy.  Shop around.  They did the same thing to us when we wanted to buy some for the IS.  Ended up buying elsewhere.  We have the X-Ice on the IS300, and really like them.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 09:29:50 pm by rrocket »
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Offline Baba

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2009, 09:55:33 pm »
davidy:

It is exactly what the Costco person said, but is it really a problem?  Does it compromise safety, performance, handling, ride or comfort?

rrocket:  You think the Costco polisy is stupid.  Your opinion on safety, performance, handling, ride and comfort?  I have 2005 Lexus 400h for sale.  Wanna buy?  Kidding.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2009, 10:08:23 pm »
davidy:

It is exactly what the Costco person said, but is it really a problem?  Does it compromise safety, performance, handling, ride or comfort?

rrocket:  You think the Costco polisy is stupid.  Your opinion on safety, performance, handling, ride and comfort?  I have 2005 Lexus 400h for sale.  Wanna buy?  Kidding.

If you drive the car sensibly, there is no safety issue whatsoever.  We even used the IS300 through the summer with these tires on with no worries.  The car handles VERY well with these (given that they are winter tires that is), the ride is great, they are quiet...and they go through the snow with ease.





Offline mmret

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2009, 10:58:58 pm »
You'll be fine as long as you're not a hoon.

Lots of people drive on Q rated (160) with no issues. Just don't take it up to Fantino-land in the summer heat.
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Offline tortoise

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2009, 10:15:16 am »
My P5 came with V rated tires and I'm now using the X-Ices.  My previous winters were H-Rated and I don't notice a significant handling difference on dry surfaces between the X-Ices and the old Kumho's.  However, in snowy conditions there's no contest.
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Offline weebl

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2009, 10:16:52 am »
Agreed.  The matched speed rating policy is generally a rule for summer or all-season tires, NOT winter tires.  For winter tires, a lower speed rating is generally acceptable for several reasons:  most people drive far less aggressively in winter conditions, the lower speed ratings generally are associated with softer compounds (better cold traction), and the tires themselves are generally manufactured with lower speed rating ranges.

Even applying that rule hard and fast to summer tires is also stupid, as long as the driver and tire shop people know exactly what they are doing, there may even be instances where it's desired to downgrade speed ratings.  Most cars tend to have H or V rated tires these days, yet let's say grandma doesn't want the harsh ride, and would realistically never get the car anywhere remotely close to the handling limits (the rule has little to do with speed than with tire stiffness).  She may be much happier with a T rated tire.  Possibly, this car also may have been equipped with T rated on the base model, but higher models were shod with H rated.
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Offline Nathan@1010tires

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2009, 01:50:41 pm »
Agreed.  The matched speed rating policy is generally a rule for summer or all-season tires, NOT winter tires. 

Correct.

I can't even think of a single vehicle that comes equipped from the factory with anything less than an S rated tire... Yet lower speed ratings in winters (Q and R) are extremely common.
Nathan

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Offline ktm525

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2009, 02:00:12 pm »
My Volvo (which came with Z? speed rated tires) handles like a steaming pile on lower speed rated tires. I think it is a combo of a heavy car and soft sidewalls. I tried Q rated snow tires (ContiVik3) and the handling was just nasty. Turn the wheel and feel the tire tread squirm followed by the sick feeling of a sidewall rolling over. Even worse was on the highway where the car lost all it's directional stability. I had to compromise on winter grip to get some semblance of handling back. Currently riding some Hankook Icebears (V).

Q rated tires+dry pavement+120 km/h on the highway with crosswind = stained underwear. ;D

Offline DKaz

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2009, 03:40:16 pm »
It's all personal preference. I'll gladly give up handling to get the best winter traction available. But understandably the 90% of the time where the roads are bare or wet (in Vancouver), some people will want to drive a bit more spirited.
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Offline Nathan@1010tires

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 06:47:16 pm »
I put ContiViking3's on my wife's Focus, and I tend to agree... But in reality, they could easily be the softest tire I have ever felt in terms of casing stiffness, so it's not surprising the way they handle.

Offline Andy@1010tires

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2009, 07:02:43 pm »
The key is just don't expect the same handling, performance etc. when you drop speed ratings. My Q rated Blizzak's are way softer than my standard tire, and I have to give extra effort to change lanes, swurve etc, when driving on the highway.
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Offline Baba

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2009, 01:19:56 pm »
So, after a fair amount of research (more like discussions), I finally installed the Michelin Primacy PA 3's.  My 2nd visit to Costco had the same reaction as the first, "we do not recommend the X Ice for your car".  I told them that most of my discussions so far have not been able to point out why the X Ice's are not recommended, other than "they are not".  Finally a tire tech was asked to come out to the customer area.  He was the first person who explained the differences to me.  He laid out the X Ice and the Primacy PA 3 side by side and pointed out the differences.  The biggest difference was the shape of the tires.  The X Ice are almost square, in the sense that the tire surface in contact with the road is straight and the tire goes almost in a straight line up to the side.  The PA 3 on the other hand curves smoothly around from the contact surface to the side.  Turns logically have to be smoother with the PA 3's.  He also asked me to bend the the 2 tires and one was clearly harder than the other.  Both items, he said would tend to sacrifice ride quality.  The PA 3's would be much better handling.  He said, "If you owned a Japanese or American car, I would say go ahead and get the X Ice, but for an European car, I would definitely not recommend them".  He told me to go the Michelin website for added information, but in fact became more confusing!  I did go the Michelin website.  It was not useful for my purpose.  So, I phoned and got a customer service rep who said "the X ice is not recommended because they are not recommended for your car!"  Further questions on Why? led to me being put on hold and after further discussion, I was told that, in fact I may install the X Ice and the guarantee would not be affected and a note was placed in my file stating that I had called Michelin and if I had a problem, the guarantee was valid.  The customer rep then told me she was just told that for Winter tires one can go down 1 rating.  And as she herself pointed out, the X Ice shows up as a recommended tire when one inputs the car in the Michelin website.  Back to Costco the next day.  A tire tech was at the customer counter.  I said I'd like to install the PA 3's  I also asked him if I may install the X Ice; he said, "Sure, you can go down one for Winter Tires, but you are going to be back complaining about the ride.  We have had many customers complain about the X ice and most are European car owners."  And, no, it was not the same tech!  So, thank you to all who replied, especially the moderaters from 1010Tires..  BTW, the PA3's are awesome!!!  Even slightly better than my summer Z Rated Michelin Pilot Sport A/S! :)

Offline DKaz

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2009, 04:08:43 pm »
Just don't expect amazing snow performance out of them, though they should do just as well on ice.

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2009, 07:00:40 pm »
Just don't expect amazing snow ice performance out of them, though they should do just as well on ice snow.

Fixed that for you.  ;)

Offline Nathan@1010tires

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2009, 11:48:38 am »
Just don't expect amazing deep snow performance out of them, though they should do just as well on ice, packed snow, slush, and much better on bare dry/wet/cold roads.

Fixed that for you.  ;)


Actually, it's correct now.

 :)

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2009, 02:18:07 pm »
A Primacy PA3 will perform as well on ice as as an X-Ice Xi2?  ???

Offline ovr50

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2009, 03:00:48 pm »
A Primacy PA3 will perform as well on ice as as an X-Ice Xi2?  ???

There is a difference between the "Pilot Alpin Primacy PA3" and the "Pilot Alpin PA3". As I understand the difference, the Primacy are for NA cars, and the PA3 is for European cars.

That said, I would assume the X-Ice would give superior snow/ice traction but worse handling, compared to either of the PA3s.
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Offline Baba

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Re: Winter Tires
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 04:48:59 pm »
Consumer Ratings had the following ratings:  Note:  CR rates on a scale of Excellent (E), Very Good (VG), Good(G), Fair(F), Poor(P).
                     (X Ice vs PA 3)
Snow Traction (E vs VG)
Ice Braking     (E vs G)
Dry Braking    (P vs G)
Wet Braking   (F vs VG)
Handling        (F vs VG)
Hydroplaning (F vs E)
Ride Comfort, Noise and Rolling resistance were the same, E or VG for both. 
The X Ice appear better for Snow traction and Ice braking, but not that the PA 3's are not good for those factors.  And the PA 3's do appear much better for non snow conditions, that is after plows have been thru or rest of the time.

So, we'll see if (when) it snows here in the big city!  But I cannot compare!π