Bought a theft recovery vehicle!

[MCTADA]

The Subaru dealership assumed the vehicle was under warranty as I take it into that dealership for all work so they released the vehicle to me without me paying.  They said the gas cap was loose - hard to believe I had driven the car to Montreal and was on my way back when the light came on....so after about 300 km??? I had parked for the day in Montreal so I guess someone could have loosened the cap.  Subaru advised me not to put a locking cap on.  The next day the dealership called me to inform me the warranty was void - Surprise!  This was in September - 6 months after I purchased the vehicle.  The service advisor asked me to come in a pay the invoice.  Charged me $31.00 - they did wash the vehicle as part of the service. 

[ucda]

YES the ad indicated the vehicle came with warranty and discussed with the salesman.  When completing the bill of sale I had to initial beside the milage and was told that was for the warranty.

So the salesman at Orr Motors lied.  Nothing new there.  Happens all the time.

The Check Engine light came on and I took it to the dealership

What was the problem?  How much did it cost?

Let's not get carried away here ... the salesman lied?  At the time the dealer sold the vehicle the warranty was in place, as I understand this question ("2 weeks after I purchased the vehicle Subaru cancelled the warranty"), so he did not "lie".  Nor does the dealer have control over when or whether Subarau decide to void the warranty, a step they take by the way, not the dealer.  That's not to say the customer might not be helped for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Also, as an aside, in my experience broad statements like "salesman ... lied ... happens all the time" are almost always wrong!  As in this case it seems.

[MCTADA]

Just for the record - I (the owner of the vehicle) did not say the salesman lied.  The salesman sold me the car with the warranty in place...I feel the responsiblilty is Subaru Canada's.  I've asked them for a written statement to support voiding the warranty.  What is written in their Warranty Booklet is not what they are doing?  My issue is 'Industry Standard' does NOT override what is written the the warranty policy.
MCTADA

[ucda]

Just for the record - I (the owner of the vehicle) did not say the salesman lied.  The salesman sold me the car with the warranty in place...I feel the responsiblilty is Subaru Canada's.  I've asked them for a written statement to support voiding the warranty.  What is written in their Warranty Booklet is not what they are doing?  My issue is 'Industry Standard' does NOT override what is written the the warranty policy.
MCTADA

Don't worry, I know you didn't say they saleman lied, that was another poster!

[articsteve]

YES the ad indicated the vehicle came with warranty and discussed with the salesman.  When completing the bill of sale I had to initial beside the milage and was told that was for the warranty.

So the salesman at Orr Motors lied.  Nothing new there.  Happens all the time.

The Check Engine light came on and I took it to the dealership

What was the problem?  How much did it cost?

Let's not get carried away here ... the salesman lied?  At the time the dealer sold the vehicle the warranty was in place, as I understand this question ("2 weeks after I purchased the vehicle Subaru cancelled the warranty"), so he did not "lie".  Nor does the dealer have control over when or whether Subarau decide to void the warranty, a step they take by the way, not the dealer.  That's not to say the customer might not be helped for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Also, as an aside, in my experience broad statements like "salesman ... lied ... happens all the time" are almost always wrong!  As in this case it seems.

The used car business is based on "mis-truth".  How many used car salesmen will tell a customer who displays extreme interest in a used vehicle, that they personally would not touch that particular vehicle with a ten foot pole.  NONE.  You've got good cars on the lot and you got sh*t cars on the lot.  They all gotta go to somebody.

At the time the dealer sold the vehicle the warranty was in place, as I understand this question ("2 weeks after I purchased the vehicle Subaru cancelled the warranty"), so he did not "lie". 

The minute this Subaru was declared salvage, then the Subaru warranty was in effect over.  Nothing prevented the sell dealer from contacting the local Subaru dealer and obtaining a letter to confirm the warranty status when they first purchased this recovery vehicle and BEFORE they resold it to the OP.   

Simply put, the OP got slammed by the selling dealer.   They lied, mislead, misinformed; phrase it anyway you want.  Then they had the nerve to offer the OP/buyer, for an obscene amount of money, a useless aftermarket warranty.  That's an attempted  DOUBLE SLAM. 

HOWEVER, until one views the original purchase contract I am assuming that it did not state "sold without warranty".

[Trainman]

Hope it's an XT, 'cause $27K seems like a lot for a written off Forester.  But, if you did get a super low price for a salvage title car, then you might still be ahead, even without the warranty.  Our 2001 Forester had less than $500 worth of warranty work in its life, and the 09's are supposed to be better.

$27,000 for a base 2009 is almost MSPR for a new one, maybe more, if I remember my shopping times from last year (just looked at the Canadian Driver web page for the 09: Price starts at (base prices): $25,795, so yes paid more than MSRP for a base, despite it being a write off).

I agree with artic, it is buyer beware on something like this.  So unless the selling dealer can provide documentation that Subaru will honor the warranty, then it seems that the OP is out of luck.

As for the gas cap thing, this is very common with all vehicles due to the nature of the evaporative (sp?) emission control systems.  It is either a faulty gas cap, or you did not put it on tight enough when you got gas and it worked loose.  Or, also common, is that you overfilled the gas tank by trying to squeeze every possible ml into it.  Just stop filling at the first click, that is what I do (I learned the hard way my Pathfinder about that one  ).

[ucda]

Sigh,

OP please do consider calling the UCDA to see if we can help you.

[ORRMOTORS]

Just stumbled on to this and felt I should speak up!  We have sold many theft recoveries over the years, as we feel that, sometimes, they represent a below fair market price on a car for a reason other than an accident.  The reason they are cheaper, is because they have suffered an insurance claim and consequently may not have a warranty available from the manufacturer.  This is a clean title vehicle, there is no salvage or rebuilt brand on the ownership, and in fact the vehicle was in perfect and original condition with only 2450 kms - definitely not something we would tell someone to avoid with a ten foot pole.  Yet this purchasers bill of sale was still clearly marked as an "insurance total loss due to theft", so that there would be no ambiguity.  We always make it clear to our purchasers that there may be an issue with the manufacturers warranty, because there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.  We don't want headaches like this one, so why would we mislead a customer to "trick" them in to buying a vehicle we could have easily sold 10 times over. This car did in fact have warranty in tact the week it was purchased as per a phone call to Subaru to verify that fact - the customer was told that - and also told we couldnt control it being cancelled.  the problem with theft recoveries is that their warranty can be cancelled at any time, and we can't control it in any way.  It is ridiculous that manufacturers can get away with this on undamaged units, nonethless they do.  This poster claims they were not informed of this, but in fact - in an email sent to me recently she makes it clear that this was discussed before she bought the car.  I have already met with her husband once, and offered to split the cost of a 3 yr warranty to offset the original warranty.   This is not a "useless aftermarket warranty" There certainly are some aftermarket warranties like that, but this is not one of them - hence the cost!  This is as close to bumper to bumper as you can get with little difference from the manufacturers warranty and some distinct advantages over the manufacturers warranty as well, such as not having to return to a Subaru dealer to have your warranty work performed.  This would in fact be giving them an additional 6 months of warranty over what it would have had new.  I didnt hear from them again until I received an email in December, requesting we meet and discuss what we can do to rectify the situation in a manor suitable to both parties, I phoned the purchaser within minutes of receiving the email, and told them I could meet with them anytime.  I am certain we will resolve the issue to the satisfaction of our customer, and this reply is not directed at them, but simply a statement to clarify some facts.  I take our reputation seriously, and I am well aware the power of an online presence, and customer reviews.

re the pricing - First of all - we are in Canada, cars are significantly more expensive here than in the U.S. so no comparing to U.S. prices here.  The vehicle was purchased for $27000....including taxes and fees!! The actual purchase price of the vehicle was $23500 and the vehicle had only 2450 kms.  $27000 is about a $4-5000 saving from a new one at the time of purchase, $25795 did not include freight pdi, other fees, or taxes.  This was at a time when these were very new and hot in the market, and there were no discounts available on new ones...in fact many were being sold for more than msrp...and for that matter - they are still hard to get a deal on!  Rest assured - the purchaser wouldn't have bought it if they didnt feel it was a good deal, they are intelligent and informed people. (a new XT btw is almost $42000 with taxes!)

as an aside, For my own piece of mind - I have to say...  It is easy to get online as an anonymous character and bad mouth a whole profession of people as some of the responders here have chosen to do, even though the OP has stated that they feel the issue is not with us!  Not so cool... its mindless slander like this that take away from the usefulness of these forums.  I would suggest that people like this stop hiding behind an online persona, and come see us in person so we can dissuade them from this opinion and put their fears to rest.  We aren't anonymous...we are easily found online and in person.  We don't lie to our customers, if we have a car for sale with any type of issue, we tell them, and they decide wether to buy it or not, if they buy it - it is clearly stated on their contract of purchase, as this one was.  We simply dont need the business that badly.  I would rather close the doors first.  When I read the comments here from somebody who doesn't know the first thing about me or my business, bad mouthing me and my staff, calling us liars, I find it rather unsettling, and it makes me want to lash back...but I cant...because they aren't a real person.  We aren't some big company that buries your issues in layers of people who can't really help with your problem.  We are people just like any others with families at home and a conscience we have to deal with every day, we have been in business for almost 50 years in the Ottawa area, have a perfect record with BBB, we never run from a customer with a problem, and we arent running from this one.  We have offered them a very good solution already, and have agreed to meet with them again in a further effort to resolve this issue.  the ball is currently in their court.

If anyone has read this post due to a similar problem, please feel free to call me for advice and the best options available, if you have purchased a vehicle with a cancelled warranty and were NOT informed of any total loss or other issue that may cause a warranty to be cancelled by your dealer, you may have recourse, and we can advise you what to do.  Sellers like that are the ones who make it harder for all of us in this proffession.

sincerely,
Fred Orr
Owner
Orr Motors

[rrocket]

ake our reputation seriously, and I am well aware the power of an online presence, and customer reviews.

re the pricing - First of all - we are in Canada, cars are significantly more expensive here than in the U.S. so no comparing to U.S. prices here. 

as an aside, For my own piece of mind - I have to say...  It is easy to get online as an anonymous character and bad mouth a whole profession of people as some of the responders here have chosen to do, even though the OP has stated that they feel the issue is not with us! 

Why not compare to the USA?  Anyone here at any time can go and buy a vehicle in the USA and save a considerable amount over buying in Canada.  New or used.  And as someone said..if the warranty is not going to be intact anyways from the salvage vehicle, might as well go by a brand new car in the USA and roll the dice and see if the warranty gets carried over to Canada.

And yes, many do badmouth your whole profession because of some dirty, underhanded tricks that your profession has been known to do.  Are all dealers bad?  NOPE.  But not all dealers are good and honest, either.

[toolatecrew]

By split the cost of the 3yr warranty I'm sure they mean sell you a warranty at HALF OF COST and not sell a warranty at HALF of Retaill which has huge margin in it right?

[ORRMOTORS]

Agreed - anyone can bring cars from the U.S. anytime, and in fact most of our inventory is from the U.S. as the dollar has been so favourable lately. But to compare basic webpage pricing isn't fair - there can be differences between U.S. and Canadian models (not sure this applies to the Forester) there are obvioulsy costs associated with going to get the car, fees at the border and, in this case, duty of 6.1%.  We try to take away the need for Canadian customers to go to the U.S. to buy their cars, we often have used models available for less than you could buy them for in the U.S. and get them back here.  We buy them there at U.S. wholesale prices, and have streamilined the process of getting them to Canada., and our markup is the same or less than U.S. dealers, so hopefully, they represent a good deal!  In this case this customer was buying a Canadian car in Canada, so I just wanted to be clear re the pricing.  At the time of sale this were very few new body Foresters available used in Ontario, the others were significantly more expensive. 

Re: the extended warranty and solving this problem, Ultimately that is between us and the customer.  In fairness to us,  we feel they were notified of the potential problem, and they decided to take a chance that the warranty would remain in tact.  We sell U.S. Hondas all the time with no factory warranty, and people are ok with it...largely because it is a Honda.  Same quality applies to Subaru.  In fairness to the customer, they bought a virtually new vehicle, they were told it had warranty the day they bought it, and somehow they assumed that it would remain in tact.  So now as a dealer we are faced with a dilemma.  We sold the car at a good price because of the warranty/theft recovery issue, our markup was also based on this, and we feel we disclosed it properly.  But -we don't want a customer driving around unhappy with their dealings with us,   Its a classic case really - 2 sides to every story.  I am confident we will be able to make this customer happy.  If not  - I am sure you will hear about it... I only hope the same applies if they are appeased!

[Brigitte]

Thanks for throwing your two cents in, Mr. Orr, and welcome to our forum.  This has turned into a very interesting thread. 

[articsteve]

Its a classic case really - 2 sides to every story

and neither are very relevant.

The OP (don't take this personally  ):

You were attracted to what you thought was a "deal" (bargain), willing to take a risk on a "theft recovery"  and signed a sales contract not fully understanding what you were signing or the exact terms of "the warranty".  By itself, the word "warranty", is meaningless.   Hence, used car dealers use it almost 100%.  "Every car sold with warranty" sounds a whole lot more welcoming than "every car sold is without warranty".  Who would respond to that ad?

YES the ad indicated the vehicle came with warranty and discussed with the salesman.  When completing the bill of sale I had to initial beside the mileage and was told that was for the warranty.

Due Diligence:  I guess you know by now that calling a service adviser at a Subaru dealership is simply that, TALK.  You needed to contact the ppl that actually pay for the warranty, namely Subaru Canada.  Live and learn right? 

Only what is written down on a sales contract counts.  You needed to see something like this in bold print:  Vehicle is sold with full OEM (Subaru Canada) warranty with X time remaining on comprehensive warranty and X time and mileage remaining on powertrain warranty.  Any thing less is used car dealer BS.


Orr Motors:

In fairness to the customer, they bought a virtually new vehicle, they were told it had warranty the day they bought it, and somehow they assumed that it would remain in tact.

and somehow they assumed that it would remain in tact   Ya think? 

Mr. Orr, the second your ad appeared with the word "warranty" attached to this vehicle you began the process of slamming the customer.  You've obviously operated like this for 40 years and I'm sure nothing will change.  It's the nature of the used car business.  Often it's a herculean struggle to get the Distributor to honour a warranty claim submitted by one of it's own dealers.  Can't see how a used car dealer can guarantee or even assume to extend an OEM warranty, EVER.

The good news for the OP is that the chances of needing the OEM warranty on this particular brand of vehicle will be next to NIL.  Unless of course this vehicle was so abused during the theft that it suffered severe accelerated wear which in any case wouldn't be covered.

OEM warranties that are attached to vehicles and claimed to be 100% rock solid by used car dealers is simply a BIG FAT FIB and everyone in the business is guilty.  The remaining OEM warranty is only as good as the service record of the vehicle. 

I will use Toyota as an example.  Some Toyota vehicles have a transmission service requirement at 48k km.  If it's not done and the tranny blows up at 90K km then the owner is SOL.  It's in the terms of the warranty agreement.  Consequently, no used car dealer knows squat about the service details of a used car.  Therefore when they say it's under OEM warranty they are only taking a guess.  It's up to the buyer to do the due diligence which of course nobody does.

Here is how the used car business works:  Car comes in, gets detailed, gets safetied, goes out the door as fast as possible.  The prior usage, maintenance and "under the surface" problems are unknown.  If a customer is fortunate enough to buy a reliable car then wonderful for them.  If a customer buys a car that turns into a lemon then, "thems the breaks", better luck next time. 

[tpl]

On the TV news on Monday I saw an article which suggested that the Ont governmenthas just imposed a new set of rules on sellers of used cars.  That the seller has to provide a very detailed list of anything that may be of interest about the car.  How the used car dealer is supposed to know all the required stuff for "true condition"  I have no idea.

Maybe Fred Orr could comment on what this could mean for his business.


New regulations say Ontario car dealers must display full vehicle price

...
(CP) – 23 hours ago

TORONTO — Sticker prices in Ontario now must include all charges for new and used vehicles.

Consumer Services Minister Ted McMeekin told a news conference Tuesday that includes the freight charge, dealer preparation charge and other miscellaneous add-on fees.

Taxes would still be extra.

Dealers also have to disclose the true condition and history of a vehicle. And there's a 90-day cancellation period if certain information - such as accurate odometer readings, or whether the vehicle had been used by police or a rental company - is not disclosed.

McMeekin says dealers benefit from a level playing field and consumers benefit from having more accurate information.

The Motor Vehicle Dealers Act came into effect Jan. 1.

[johngenx]

Alberta has the "buyer beware" system, ensuring many butthurt buyers of cars.  Ontario is moving in the right direction.

[kardood69]

On the TV news on Monday I saw an article which suggested that the Ont governmenthas just imposed a new set of rules on sellers of used cars.  That the seller has to provide a very detailed list of anything that may be of interest about the car.  How the used car dealer is supposed to know all the required stuff for "true condition"  I have no idea.

Maybe Fred Orr could comment on what this could mean for his business.


New regulations say Ontario car dealers must display full vehicle price

...
(CP) – 23 hours ago

TORONTO — Sticker prices in Ontario now must include all charges for new and used vehicles.

Consumer Services Minister Ted McMeekin told a news conference Tuesday that includes the freight charge, dealer preparation charge and other miscellaneous add-on fees.

Taxes would still be extra.

Dealers also have to disclose the true condition and history of a vehicle. And there's a 90-day cancellation period if certain information - such as accurate odometer readings, or whether the vehicle had been used by police or a rental company - is not disclosed.

McMeekin says dealers benefit from a level playing field and consumers benefit from having more accurate information.

The Motor Vehicle Dealers Act came into effect Jan. 1.

Well, it would have to be the 'true condition' based on the info they have.  When you sell your house you have to disclose any known defects, but at the same time we're not expected to have a crystal ball or recognize all defects.

[tenpenny]

Here is how the used car business works:  Car comes in, gets detailed, gets safetied, goes out the door as fast as possible.  The prior usage, maintenance and "under the surface" problems are unknown.  If a customer is fortunate enough to buy a reliable car then wonderful for them.  If a customer buys a car that turns into a lemon then, "thems the breaks", better luck next time. 

Pretty much exactly the same as the new car business, in my experience.

[articsteve]

Pretty much exactly the same as the new car business, in my experience.

Not completely dissimilar.

[articsteve]

Well, it would have to be the 'true condition' based on the info they have.  When you sell your house you have to disclose any known defects, but at the same time we're not expected to have a crystal ball or recognize all defects.

Knowledge of the vehicle's true condition is based on a mandatory signed disclosure statement from the previous owner:  accidents, out of province/country origin, prior usage, liens, major repairs.  This document stays with the car.  So the "true condition" is based on info from the previous owner, not the selling dealer, other than the usual items, like rental, taxi, salvage, etc.   

Most of the new rules are pretty lite and will effect only out and out dishonest dealers.  Many of these rules are already in place thru OMVIC.  One change in the contract that will not be particularly welcome by all dealers is with regards to the dealer receiving a commission or "kick bacK" on the financing.  This almost always occurs.  However, most buyers won't notice it or comprehend it.  The amount of the commission is not required to be disclosed, only that one has occured.  This of course would be a deal breaker for most buyers who are ignorant to the fact that commission kickbacks occur in almost any type of financing.

[kardood69]

Well, it would have to be the 'true condition' based on the info they have.  When you sell your house you have to disclose any known defects, but at the same time we're not expected to have a crystal ball or recognize all defects.

Knowledge of the vehicle's true condition is based on a mandatory signed disclosure statement from the previous owner:  accidents, out of province/country origin, prior usage, liens, major repairs.  This document stays with the car.  So the "true condition" is based on info from the previous owner, not the selling dealer, other than the usual items, like rental, taxi, salvage, etc.   

Isn't that the 'info they have'?

Funny, I know of someone who had the front of his car repaired and painted before his parents returned from vacation.   Paid cash.  No one was the wiser, so his parents could disclose all they know till the cows come home.   Nowadays I dunno if the bodyshops report it somewhere.

Most of the new rules are pretty lite and will effect only out and out dishonest dealers.  Many of these rules are already in place thru OMVIC.  One change in the contract that will not be particularly welcome by all dealers is with regards to the dealer receiving a commission or "kick bacK" on the financing.  This almost always occurs.  However, most buyers won't notice it or comprehend it.  The amount of the commission is not required to be disclosed, only that one has occured.  This of course would be a deal breaker for most buyers who are ignorant to the fact that commission kickbacks occur in almost any type of financing.

That's why you say you're going to finance, get a good price, then suddenly have the cash..