Brake Work

[blur911]

I forgot to mention that I did buy a torque wrench so that I could torque the bolts down to the proper setting.  My manual says to do the wheel's to 80 ft/lbs.  Now here is my problem.  I could not figure out how to use the blasted tool.  I read the instructions - but they seem a bit ambiguous - or maybe it's just me?  I know how to theoreticaly set the torque wrench to 80 ft/lbs but when I went to use it something was not making sense.  I remember watching somone a long time ago use one and I thought this is how it should work?  It seemed to me that I kep pushing down on it with too much force - so I thopught let me set it to a much lower setting just to see if I would hear it click or jump - indicating the setting was reached.  Well I set it to about 30 ft/lbs and kept pushing - still no click?  So either I am a weaklling (maybe we could get your girlfriend to help me out rrocket (joking) or I just don't know what the %^& k I am doing - also true!!  I am over 200 lbs in weight - I could have kept pushing but it just did not feel right.  So after several attempts I gave up and just tightened the fronts purely by guessing - I may try again later.  If any one has any ideas on using a torque wrench please let me know. 

How long is your torque wrench? What type is it? 
I'm assuming it's a clicker type with the handle that screws in to set it, if so, and it's about 18" long it shouldn't take a whole lot of force to reach 30lbs.-ft. or 80 for that matter.  Perhaps it's broken?  Have you ever heard it click?   
BTW, if it's set to zero and you use it as a ratchet it's probably toast.

[dr_spock]

How to use torque wrench:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgwwOJ0B964

[Canada]

It just gets better guys.  Picked up the fresh calipers from CT - nobody called me as they said they would - I had to call them - of course when I called they were there waiting for me - wasn't going to bother asking why no one bothered to tell me they were in.  So I put the right rear back together and I was wondering what the two little metal washers were for - I certainly did not notice any washers when I took the thing apart?  I thought they just gave me extras in case?  I move over to the left rear.  Same crap there the bolts holding the calipers were nicely rusted.  Again one of the bolts holding the two piece caliper together broke off. So I thought no problem as I am already armed with spankin new unit - take out the old put in the new and we're good to go.  Here is where everything goes to pot.  I put the Liquid wrench on and wait a couple of minutes and proceed to wrestle with the first bolt.  I used a metal extension to get better leverage.  Starts to creak but slowly starts to turn - I thought OK now we're getting somewhere.  After a minute or two I felt it crack.  Now the bolt holding the main part of the caliper to the axle broke.  All of the sudden figuring out how the torque wrench worked and bleeding the brakes seemed irrevelant.  I felt the same way I did years ago when I did my first oil change and the oil filter would not come off - so I shoved a screw driver through it hoping to force it loose.  That did not work either by the way.  So now I am royally up the  &*$#@  creek.  So now I am thinking of buying one of those tools for the drill that bores out rusted broken bolts?  I do not think I have much more time today as my wife has plans for us later today - will have to wait until tomorrow to get back to my misadventure - I think I understand why you guys thought I should have left the rears alone.  It's either that or have it towed somewhere to have it done.  I do not want to give up yet.  If I do I know my wife will say I told you not to mess with crap you don't understand.  Well at least we have one car that still works.  I am open to suggestions.  If anyone knows where I could find one of those drill bit broken bolt removers let me know.  Also let me know what the technical name for that is?  Or if anyone has any better suggestions please speak up.  I gotta go get ready for tonight.  I will check in sometime tomorrow and let you know what's happening.  I guess if I had checked the brakes every year taken everything apart and olied and greased this probably would not have happened - but who does that?  Maybe I won't wait until that car is 9 or 10 years old next time.  Maybe I'll just do the fronts and have it taken in for the rears?  I'll feel better once I get that broken bolt out. What else can go wrong?  dr_spock thanks for that torque wrench video.

[Canada]

My torque wrench is the Maxximum Pro Series from CT I believe it is 3/8 drive.  Would not be surprised if is toasted since I did use it as a ratchet and I probably set it to zero.  So now I know another what not to do - gotta love it.

[Canada]

Ok last thing I forgot to mention - I figured out when I was doing the other rear where those two little metal washers were from - they were from the brake line connection.  So now I gotta go back again and redo that part on the other side.

[dr_spock]

Ouch.  What kind of car are you doing the brake work on?

[articsteve]

Now the bolt holding the main part of the caliper to the axle broke.

You are in a world of pain now. 

You need a high quality Easy Out kit.  Using these on steel bolts and cast is very difficult.  Depending on the result you may need to helicoil which is very complex/expensive if you don't have a full kit to pick from.

Is there still a stub sticking out from the hole?  In other words, can you still get a good quality vice grip on the bolt stub?  I'm think MAP gas and heat the heck out of it.  Drain the brake fluid first.

[PJungnitsch]

This might be useful reading, 'The Art of Extraction':

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may2003/techtotech.htm

On the bleeding, be careful when pumping the brakes, put a 2X4 under the pedal, just so it can't go all the way to the floor. Sometimes this can strip out the seals in the master cylinder. Don't ask me how I know....

Speedbleeders make bleeding an easy one person operation.

[Canada]

Ok. That was a good article - the art of extraction - thanks.  I wish I had the chance to read it before I went off in the wide blue yonder.  The car is a 2000 acura TL.  My torque wrench is probably toast - least of my problems.  Still haven't had the time to figure out how to use one even if I had a brand new one.  Will get back to that later.  My weekend conisted of several runs to Canadian Tire, Home Hardware, Parts Source, Princess Auto, Brofasco or Dofasco - one of the fasco's, Wallmart, Home Depot, Rona and finally this moning to the dealer.  I now know all about the world of pain articsteve to say the least. Visited several of the above trying to find new bolts and bolt extractors.  The worst part had to be in Canadian Tire - I hate being sent down some isle by someone that knows diddly about what I am talking about.  I ended up just walking out in frustration.  It turns out that after attempting to drill out the broken bolt I had zero luck doing so.  Because it had broken off at a weird angle it was hard getting in there for the bit to catch and not to mention getting the drill at perpendicular was next to impossible?  So I had to resort to a mini hacksaw blade.  The one side was not so bad but I realized after cutting through I stll had another problem.  The other end was hitting the metal rotor spalsh guard and because the curve was bent I still could not extract the seized caliper.  So I started cutting the other end of the bolt with the blade.  After 15/20 minutes success.  I could not believe my eyes the part was off!  So now I just need new bolts which I have ordered from the dealer and are due for pick up later today.  In my attempt to extract the caliper from the axle it appears I may have slightly bent the metal rotor deflector / protector.  I know this because when I spin the rotor there is a slight scraping sound.  Now I have minimized the scrape and I will find a flat piece of metal to place between the rotor and the protector to bend it back ever so slightly in an attempt to eliminate the scrape. 

So now the hard part is over - I hope.  I still have to bleed the brakes - which I will do and I still plan on taking it to the dealer and have them flush the brake fluid completely.  I still have to go back to the other rear and put back the new washers that I failed to do on my first attempt. 

It's all good now.  As rrocket mentioned earlier a haynes or equivalent would have been the smart thing to do - it's just that I like doing things the hard way.  I'll keep you guys updated right to the end - almost there.

[articsteve]

I still have to bleed the brakes - which I will do and I still plan on taking it to the dealer and have them flush the brake fluid completely.

HOLD ON THERE!

Bleeding the brakes and flushing the brake fluid "completely" is one in the same; just takes longer.

Don't ruin this epic voyage by going to the dealer.  If it's an Acura dealer they are gonna nail you $130.00 just for doing it, plus mark up the brake fluid X 2.

Invest now in a brake bleeder.  In your case STAY AWAY from using the brake pedal to prime the brake system.  Your master cylinder is too old to mess with.

Go back to Princess Auto and buy a manually operated brake bleeder.  From there on it's a breeze.  Just buy plenty of DOT 4 brake fluid and keep the master brake cylinder reservoir full.  On the original calipers spray the bleeders at the top with something like PB Blaster a few times prior and tap on them lightly.

Now I have minimized the scrape and I will find a flat piece of metal to place between the rotor and the protector to bend it back ever so slightly in an attempt to eliminate the scrape. 

Pry Bar. 

[ktm525]

Skip buying a brake bleeder. You can make one for under $20.


update: Arctic are you thinking of the vacuum pemp set-up or a pressure setup off of the master cylinder?

Mine is a pressure system using a hand-held sprayer, some tubing and a modified master cylinder cap.

[articsteve]

Skip buying a brake bleeder. You can make one for under $20.


update: Arctic are you thinking of the vacuum pemp set-up or a pressure setup off of the master cylinder?

Mine is a pressure system using a hand-held sprayer, some tubing and a modified master cylinder cap.

I hear ya.  But for practical purposes in this case I think Mr. Canada is better off to just go with something off the shelf in vacuum type.  You can use it on any thing.  But I do reach for my pressure unit first when applicable.

Here is a pic of the one I use:  it fits most Euro cars and it did fit a Acura EL.  Although I had trouble using it on a slave cylinder job so I went up to the shop and borrowed the ultimate.    pic enclosed.

[Canada]

OK we can all give a big sigh of relief.  As far as I am concerned the job is done.  Whew, I gotta say though it was pretty hairy over the weekend.  I tried not to let it show to my wife but several times I thought how the heck am I going to get my arse out of this jam?  World of pain - PITA - lot's of bruised knuckles / ego. I know all about it now!  I did not want to give up and take the easy road by having the car towed to a shop!  What a learning experience.  Would I have done it again?  Oh yeah - even if I did not change a single thing!  Nothing like getting the job done! 

Now here is how things got resolved.  Yes atricsteve - ktm525, I did buy a brake bleeder kit off the shelf from Princess Auto (I love that place) and a couple of cans of DOT 3 brake fluid (as per Owners Manual).  Like you said I thought to myself - I got this far why ruin it and go to the dealer now?  Initially I asked my wife to help out by pressing on the brake pedal but it did not work at that time because I did not know what the  ^#@k  I was doing.  Between everyones posts here and some quick net research I figured it out.  Once again just because you have the proper tools it does not mean jack unless you know what to do with them !  The brake bleeder kit came with some clear plastic tubing, a small cup like reservoir and 3 or four various sized nipple attchments - not sure of the technical term for nipple - bleeder valve?  Once I figured it out it was a breeze.  I asked my neighbour to give me a hand and step on the brakes while I bled them at the other end.  I noticed the flow was not as strong at the rears as it was for the fronts.  We did the routine several times and then some until there was zero air bubbles coming through the bleeder valves and into the clear tube.  After we were done I tightened the valves put the rubber cover back and gave it a test run.  The brakes felt solid, smooth and actually stopped the car.  I think I will check the brake fluid level several times over the next few days / weeks just to make sure it is not going down / leaks.  Anyone know after you open up a can of brake fluid how long it can still be used?  Is it garbage the next day or do you have a week or two? 

The fronts and the right rear have zero issues and sound really good / silent now.  The only small beef I have is with the left rear - that's the one I had the most problems with - extracting that seized bolt / caliper.  Probably due to frustration and inexperience I must have ever so slightly bent that steel plate beside the rotor that protects the rotor from crap getting in there I guess.  I have minimized the scraping but it is still faintly noticable especially when I go by a parked car or building - echoes I guess.  I am hoping after some time that it will all but disappear? 

Now I can figure out how to use a torque wrench.  Mine is probably messed up and I will wait until it goes on sale to get another one.  All the bolts are nice and tight hopefully not too tight.  Again I think I may take the wheels off after a few thou kilometers just to make sure my handiwork is secure.   I do not think I will let my wife drive the car for at least a few weeks until I am certain all is good - not that I have any doubts but if crap is gonna happen I would rather it happens with myself only rather than anybody else. 

So all is good again.  Now I have a few remaining questions.  Where do you guys get supplies from?  A few places I am considering for the next time are Princess Auto, Napa, Parts Source?  Who carries the best quality / variety parts like pads / calipers / rotors for a good price?  I did not have the time to wait for something to go on sale or search various places this time.  Someone mentioned a vacum type device so I could bleed the brakes myself without a second person stepping on the pedal?  Where can you sugguest I buy one of these? 

I cannot thank everyone here enough.  Everyone was very helpfull.  Thank you rrocket for giving me the jumpstart I needed to get moving - I think your " give yourself some credit - my 90 pound girlfriend changed the brakes with your supervision " worked for me!  Blur911, dr_spock, articsteve, PJungnitsch, ktm525 and anyone else I may have missed your posts / help have proved to be invaluable. Thanks!

[tortoise]

Well done!  Though it sounds like a bit of an ordeal I have no doubt you learned a lot and hopefully gained some confidence by doing it yourself.

I hope the beer tasted extra delicous after you finished.

[blur911]

Glad to hear you stuck with it and won.
Sounds like you learned a lot more than if everything would have gone smoothly.
BTW, you might be able to return that torque wrench and say it was like that out of the box, it very well might have been.   Can't remember Crappy's policy on torque wrenches.

[articsteve]

Anyone know after you open up a can of brake fluid how long it can still be used?  Is it garbage the next day or do you have a week or two? 

If cap is tight .... a year.  But you use DOT4 just for that very reason.

Pumping the brakes is a risky maneuver on a 10 year old vehicle.  Eventually you will get burned and a new master brake cylinder will be required.

Princess Auto should have had a vacuum brake bleed system for sale.   I along with KTM like the PRESSURE type that screws on to the brake fluid reservoir.  What is the diameter of your brake reservoir cap?

[rrocket]

Well despite your pitfalls, you got through.  I'm 100% confident that you could do almost any brake job after this.  Sure you stumbled your way around, but now you know what to do....or not to do.  The next time the Acura needs brakes, you'll get it done much quicker.  I can generally knock off a set of front brakes in about an hour without rushing.  Keep at it, and you'll be even quicker....

Cheers for tackling the job AND getting it done!!   

[ktm525]

Anyone know after you open up a can of brake fluid how long it can still be used?  Is it garbage the next day or do you have a week or two? 

If cap is tight .... a year.  But you use DOT4 just for that very reason.

Pumping the brakes is a risky maneuver on a 10 year old vehicle.  Eventually you will get burned and a new master brake cylinder will be required.

Princess Auto should have had a vacuum brake bleed system for sale.   I along with KTM like the PRESSURE type that screws on to the brake fluid reservoir.  What is the diameter of your brake reservoir cap?

Yeah I got inspired and built a new one. I am undecided whether to mount a pressure gauge or add a schrader valve so that I can measure tank pressure with a tire gauge. With the valve I will be able to add air with a bike pump which will stop air bubbling through the brake fluid.

[Canada]

Yes, the beer did taste extra sweet after the job was done.  Today they sound even better - practicaly silent.  I am very happy with the result and yes the next time the job should be much faster and smoother.  Not going to bother with that torque wrench from CT.  I was thinking I will do some research and try and get a good one elsewhere - Snap On tools perhaps or similar?  I will also check out the vacum brake bleed system at Princess next time. Gotta check the diameter of the brake reservoir.  I guess I lucked out with the brake master cylinder - looking forward to tackling that project the next time as well as some new rotors.  Cheers.

[blur911]

Yes, the beer did taste extra sweet after the job was done.  Today they sound even better - practicaly silent.  I am very happy with the result and yes the next time the job should be much faster and smoother.  Not going to bother with that torque wrench from CT.  I was thinking I will do some research and try and get a good one elsewhere - Snap On tools perhaps or similar?  I will also check out the vacum brake bleed system at Princess next time. Gotta check the diameter of the brake reservoir.  I guess I lucked out with the brake master cylinder - looking forward to tackling that project the next time as well as some new rotors.  Cheers.

Snap-On is very expensive, but of course very good. Believe it or not, the beam type torque wrenches with the indicator bar are usually fairly accurate and stay that way.  The type you have has to be unwound after use and can become inaccurate over time.  If mainly used for wheels, the beam type are perfect and cheaper.
I guess the one you have can still be used as a ratchet even if you don't return it.
Also, if you can rig up a pressure bleeding system it works much better than the vacuum method, I have both and pressure is so much easier.  Just remember, it only takes a couple of psi to work, don't blow up your reservoir.