Brake Work

[Canada]

Can anyone recomend a good brake place in and around TO?  Good = excellent workmanship + a reasonable cost. I am also curious what the shortest and longest interval (kilometer wise not time) people have between brake work?  Thanks.

[PJungnitsch]

Changed front rotors and rear pads at ~350,000 km. Front pads approx 100,000, IIRC.

[Canada]

Wow that is incredible PJ.  I assume you did the work yourself?  What brand of car / truck are you driving if you don't mind sharing? Are these carbon ceramic brakes?  I guess your driving style has a lot to do with it.  I try to anticipate what's happening down the road but I don't think I could ever even come close to getting 350 000 km out of the front rotors.  Good for you. 

[quadzilla]

2002 Protege5 = 150,000kms/4 years - sold the car
2005 Mazda6 Wagon = 120,000/4 year - sold the car
2009 GTI = Too soon to know.

[Canada]

The max I have done so far is  120 000 km and 110 000 km.  I am sure if I tried to change the front pads they would have told me that my rotors were below minimum allowed.  I should change them at 50 or 60 000km while the rotors are still good then I'd have a good chance to hit 150 000 or 200 000 km with the same rotors.

[PJungnitsch]

That is my '87 Mazda pickup. It's very possible that older vehicles had heavier discs. They did look pretty ugly, rusted and scored, but braked well, were not warped or anything, no pulsing. Changed them anyway, (myself) and did not notice braking improve. I wonder if the eagerness of shops to machine brake discs has to do with them paying for the grinding machines.

At least on that truck, I have found that servicing the caliper slides much more important. Lack of lube and corrosion on the caliper slides made for calipers that didn't center, resulting in uneven pad wear and 'pull' during braking.

[Canada]

PJ thanks for that.  Yes older rides, especially pickups, probably have/had heavier discs.  Interesting point re the caliper slides.  I was tempted to mess with the brakes on a few occaisons but each time I thought about doing it myself I thought to myself if I get it wrong things could turn bad in a hurry.  Everytime I mentioned it to my wife she talked me out of it and once again reminded me that if I messed up brakes would be the last thing one needs to mess up.  Not like forgeting to change the air filter.  So I end up taking it somewhere to get it done by a pro.  If I had an old piece of junk and I was the only one driving it without wife / kids then I would try it for sure. 

[rrocket]

PJ thanks for that.  Yes older rides, especially pickups, probably have/had heavier discs.  Interesting point re the caliper slides.  I was tempted to mess with the brakes on a few occaisons but each time I thought about doing it myself I thought to myself if I get it wrong things could turn bad in a hurry.  Everytime I mentioned it to my wife she talked me out of it and once again reminded me that if I messed up brakes would be the last thing one needs to mess up.  Not like forgeting to change the air filter.  So I end up taking it somewhere to get it done by a pro.  If I had an old piece of junk and I was the only one driving it without wife / kids then I would try it for sure. 

Give yourself more credit.  Brakes aren't a difficult job.  After the tire is off, it's usually only a few bolts and some cleaning.  My 90lb. girlfriend did most of the work putting hi-perf pads and rotors on her IS300.  I was just there to supervise.

The biggest worry for me has always been stuck bolts.  Beyond that, there isn't too much to screw up.  If I was closer, I'd go to your place to show you how to do it.

[blur911]

It's usually not a difficult job, but when things go wrong it can be a PITA.  Most brake jobs are dead easy, but if some corrosion gets in there you can have broken bleed screws, seized sliders, etc.
If you are reasonably handy usually the best to do in that situation is to just buy a rebuilt caliper.

The easiest pads I've ever changed are on my 911.  Knock out two pins, remove pads, press back pistons, insert new pads, replace pins, done. All brakes should be as easy, simple, and powerful. Original rotors AFAIK, 150,000miles, some of them not so easy.  I've gone through lots of Repco Metalmaster pads, which I find to be cheap and decent.

[dr_spock]

I started doing my own brake work last year.   It wasn't too hard.   BFH (hammer) is a good friend when things are stuck. 

My rear pads lasted 100,000 km on my VW.   At 120000+ km my front looks like 50%.

[Canada]

Ok guys you have inspired me. I am going to give it a shot. Tomorrow I am going to crapy tire and getting a jack.  Can you guys recomend anything to do or buy that may make the job easier?  Some questions I have right now are what can you get for the stuck bolts ie Liquid wrench or WD40? What is this BFH hammer - is that a rubber hammer? Any advice to ensure the calipers slide easily - if they don't what do you recomend?  I've got about 110 000km and plan on just changing the pads for now.  Any last words of advice or tools I may need before I start? Thanks.

[rrocket]

Ok guys you have inspired me. I am going to give it a shot. Tomorrow I am going to crapy tire and getting a jack.  Can you guys recomend anything to do or buy that may make the job easier?  Some questions I have right now are what can you get for the stuck bolts ie Liquid wrench or WD40? What is this BFH hammer - is that a rubber hammer? Any advice to ensure the calipers slide easily - if they don't what do you recomend?  I've got about 110 000km and plan on just changing the pads for now.  Any last words of advice or tools I may need before I start? Thanks.

1) What kind of car?
2) Get a Haynes manual JUST IN CASE you need it.
3) Liquid Wrench (or PB Blaster) works better than WD40.
4) Calipers?  Get a little pack of caliper grease
5) Get some "stop squeak" for the back of the pads.  It's a blue coloured goo.
6) I would recommend you change the rotors...since your worn rotors are likely to chew up the new pads some
7) Send me a PM if you want my phone number in case you need some encouragement   
8 )  BFH...a weighted dead blow hammer works nicely (Princess Auto has em for cheap)

[safristi]

..Brake Work..Me Happy.................. .......oh STOP IT.................honest it woz unintended accelerated brainfarts...............

[Canada]

Hey guys thank you for giving me a kick in the but.  We all need a little kickstart once in a while.  Well here is the update.  So far, due to poor planning / timing I decided to just get my supplies at crappy tire rather than princess auto - pa is not so close to me.  My guess is I am probably paying 70% more for the ct parts.  Next time I will plan better.  Can anyone advise a better place (than princess auto) for pricing and availability of parts.
OK I bought the hardware at CT - which kinda ticked me off since I have seen these things on sale 50 times but of course when I decide to get them no sale - I guess if it goes on sale in 30 days I could still ask for some money back.  The car is a 2000 acura TL.  The Haynes I did not bother to get (yet).  I figured knowing you guys here is probably 100 times better than Haynes?  I got the jack + stands and a C clamp.  I got the Liquid Wrench and the brake pads - semi metallic - the only ones crappy tire sold.  I bought the grease and noticed that a small packet came in the box with the front pads.  The rotors I did not buy but now that you (rrocket) mentioned the nerw pads possibly being chewed up by the old rotor I am thinking I should have?  I guess I was being cheap and was trying to keep the costs down.  I also got the BFH or equivalent.

Now here is my progress report.  The front I did first and for the most part were a piece of cake.  I just had a slight issue with one of the shims on the front.  I kept trying to tweak it but it appears that it still makes a slight rubbing sound when you drive.  Not sure what to do about it.  It is the top shim and I believe it catches or rubs slightly on the rotor.  I have already had the wheel off twice - it's better but still there.  Maybe after I finish the rears I will take everything apart and try again?  I am open to suggestions?

The rears are a whole different ballgame - not unlike what you mentioned - blur911.  It is kind of a PITA.  I started with one of the rears.  I managed to remove the bolt but after it was off I noticed that it was bent and half cracked - great start?  Everything back there was twice as rusty as the front.  After I got the first bolt off I had a hard time swinging the calipers up out of the way.  That BFH came in handy! I reasoned that if I slightly loosened the top bolt the caliper might swing easier upwards?  Well you guessed it the f ^$#&* ing bolt broke off.  So I remembered what blur911 said and decided just to get new calipers.  The bad news is that CT has to order them.  They said it should come in tomorrow morning - I had to pay for them in advance.  I figured the other side would probably play out the same so I ordered two sets. 

Now I have a couple of questions.  Since I had to remove the brake line from the caliper it started to leak.  Not a lot but you know a steady drip.  I put a pail under it to catch it. 
1. If I got some of the brake fluid / Liquid Wrench on the rubber / plastic grommets part of the control arms etc is this a bad thing - do I need to wash this off with water or don't sweat it?
2. Because of the dripping break fluid will there now be an air pocket in the break line leading to the right rear?  Do I need to do anything - bleed the brakes (rears only)?  I noticed on one half of the calipers a nipple like thingy with a rubber cover maybe 3 or 4 mm in width?  Not sure if that is used for bleeding the brake. 
3. If I need to bleed the rears to get the air out of the line how is it done?

Thank's for your help guys, rrocket, blur911, PJ, dr_s, safristi and anyone else I may have missed.  I will keep you guys posted.  rrocket thank you again if I get myself in trouble I may have to send you a PM.  Keep your fingers crossed.  I hate to bug anyone unless it's absolutely necessary.  I think if CT comes through tomorrow and gets those new calipers for me it should be a no brainer.  I do think next time I should just get new rotors also.  Until tomorrow.

[rrocket]

Hey guys thank you for giving me a kick in the but.  We all need a little kickstart once in a while.  Well here is the update.  So far, due to poor planning / timing I decided to just get my supplies at crappy tire rather than princess auto - pa is not so close to me.  My guess is I am probably paying 70% more for the ct parts.  Next time I will plan better.  Can anyone advise a better place (than princess auto) for pricing and availability of parts.
OK I bought the hardware at CT - which kinda ticked me off since I have seen these things on sale 50 times but of course when I decide to get them no sale - I guess if it goes on sale in 30 days I could still ask for some money back.  The car is a 2000 acura TL.  The Haynes I did not bother to get (yet).  I figured knowing you guys here is probably 100 times better than Haynes?  I got the jack + stands and a C clamp.  I got the Liquid Wrench and the brake pads - semi metallic - the only ones crappy tire sold.  I bought the grease and noticed that a small packet came in the box with the front pads.  The rotors I did not buy but now that you (rrocket) mentioned the nerw pads possibly being chewed up by the old rotor I am thinking I should have?  I guess I was being cheap and was trying to keep the costs down.  I also got the BFH or equivalent.

Now here is my progress report.  The front I did first and for the most part were a piece of cake.  I just had a slight issue with one of the shims on the front.  I kept trying to tweak it but it appears that it still makes a slight rubbing sound when you drive.  Not sure what to do about it.  It is the top shim and I believe it catches or rubs slightly on the rotor.  I have already had the wheel off twice - it's better but still there.  Maybe after I finish the rears I will take everything apart and try again?  I am open to suggestions?

The rears are a whole different ballgame - not unlike what you mentioned - blur911.  It is kind of a PITA.  I started with one of the rears.  I managed to remove the bolt but after it was off I noticed that it was bent and half cracked - great start?  Everything back there was twice as rusty as the front.  After I got the first bolt off I had a hard time swinging the calipers up out of the way.  That BFH came in handy! I reasoned that if I slightly loosened the top bolt the caliper might swing easier upwards?  Well you guessed it the f ^$#&* ing bolt broke off.  So I remembered what blur911 said and decided just to get new calipers.  The bad news is that CT has to order them.  They said it should come in tomorrow morning - I had to pay for them in advance.  I figured the other side would probably play out the same so I ordered two sets. 

Now I have a couple of questions.  Since I had to remove the brake line from the caliper it started to leak.  Not a lot but you know a steady drip.  I put a pail under it to catch it. 
1. If I got some of the brake fluid / Liquid Wrench on the rubber / plastic grommets part of the control arms etc is this a bad thing - do I need to wash this off with water or don't sweat it?
2. Because of the dripping break fluid will there now be an air pocket in the break line leading to the right rear?  Do I need to do anything - bleed the brakes (rears only)?  I noticed on one half of the calipers a nipple like thingy with a rubber cover maybe 3 or 4 mm in width?  Not sure if that is used for bleeding the brake. 
3. If I need to bleed the rears to get the air out of the line how is it done?

Thank's for your help guys, rrocket, blur911, PJ, dr_s, safristi and anyone else I may have missed.  I will keep you guys posted.  rrocket thank you again if I get myself in trouble I may have to send you a PM.  Keep your fingers crossed.  I hate to bug anyone unless it's absolutely necessary.  I think if CT comes through tomorrow and gets those new calipers for me it should be a no brainer.  I do think next time I should just get new rotors also.  Until tomorrow.

Ugggg....this is exactly why I suggested the Haynes (or similar) manual.  They offer a step by step on how to do it.  They also have the torque values for the bolts when you put it back together.  I suspect you just tightened everything up without torquing, right?  There might also have also been a special order to removing the rear calipers in the Haynes....which may have prevented the damage.

As for the leaking brake line...get a piece wire (coat hanger, whatever) and hook it through the end of the brake line and hook the other end onto the shock and tilt it so it points up...this will slow gravity from allowing the fluid to drain out.  You will likely need to bleed the lines, but without seeing the Haynes, I don't know how much of a PITA this will be.  For example, on Lexus, you can't bleed the lines normally (it's a 2 man job...normal way is to put some clear hose on the closed nipple, have friend/wife pump the brake several times then hold pedal to the floor, open nipple quickly to let air escape (you'll see bubbles in the clear line), close nipple,  repeat until no air comes out.)  However, on some higher tech cars, the sudden opening of the bleeder nipple makes the car think a brake line has broken and the master cylinder closes that individual brake line.  Therefore, you have to jump the electric brain controlling the master cylinder so that this doesn't happen.  On some cars, it's no issue.  On other, it has to be done.

The grinding you hear is what I was referring to by either getting new rotors or getting the rotors turned.  The old brake pads wear out on the end..particularly the end nearest the hub.  If you look at the rotors, you'll see a distinct lip on the rotor from where the pads have worn it.  Now your new pads are a touch larger and are now sitting on that lip area and on the previously worn rotor area.  So what's happening is the pad is grinding away on that portion of the rotor.

Good on you for trying it.  Brakes aren't that difficult.  But it would have been much easier if you had some service manual. Also...why are you doing the back brakes?  I'd be a bit surprised if the are worn out.  Generally, you can go through 3-5 sets (or more) of front pads before the back even need changing once.  Also...is your emergency brake on??  That might be another reason the back caliper/rotors is so difficult to get off.

The manual is so cheap and often comes in handy...even if you only ever use it for ONE thing, it can save alot of heartache.

[tortoise]

Also...why are you doing the back brakes?

It really depends on the car.  Rear calipers can seize if not serviced regularly and gradually wear down the rear pads.

[johngenx]

The easiest pads I've ever changed are on my 911.  Knock out two pins, remove pads, press back pistons, insert new pads, replace pins, done. All brakes should be as easy, simple, and powerful. Original rotors AFAIK, 150,000miles, some of them not so easy.  I've gone through lots of Repco Metalmaster pads, which I find to be cheap and decent.

Typical older German car.  Most MB products were super DIY friendly until very recently.  I could do a full brake job in my garage in less than an hour on any of the Mercedes I owned.

The 911 was easy, but I still had the mechanic do it.  The high cost was the turbo specific pads and rotors.  Close to $500 a corner if memory serves...

[Canada]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda... now I guess I know what not to do for the next time.  It's been something so far - in a good way - I still am glad I made the attempt even if I needed a bit of a kick start. I am still waiting for CT to call and let me know to go pick up the new calipers.  Yes, rrocket, you are right that manual would have made things a lot easier.  Now I figure I am practicaly half done - pronounced cheap - I hope it (being cheap) does not bite me in the arse.  The order for removing the rears - never occured to me since the fronts went so smoothly - with the exception of the slight squeeking on the drivers side - but I think I am going to get back to that after I am done with the rears.

Yes that was my logic re. the rears. I thought the fronts probably wear out at a faster rate since most of the weight is up front and the bias is probably set to slightly favour the front from the factory.  Well I thought just do all fours since I am getting my hands dirty anyway.  To my surprise there was about half as much pad material left on the rear as compared to the front?  Go figure?  Exactly opposite of what I thought was going to happen?  I checked our other car (truck) and noticed that the front's were wearing faster than the rears - as expected.  Who knows maybe the factory got it messed up and set the bias to favour the rear - perhaps because it's front wheel drive - I am just guessing here?  Or maybe like tortoise mentioned the rears seized up and wore the pads down at a faster rate?  I am thinking I will check the manual - if they have an open one at CT when I go to pick up the rear calipers.

I forgot to mention that I did buy a torque wrench so that I could torque the bolts down to the proper setting.  My manual says to do the wheel's to 80 ft/lbs.  Now here is my problem.  I could not figure out how to use the blasted tool.  I read the instructions - but they seem a bit ambiguous - or maybe it's just me?  I know how to theoreticaly set the torque wrench to 80 ft/lbs but when I went to use it something was not making sense.  I remember watching somone a long time ago use one and I thought this is how it should work?  It seemed to me that I kep pushing down on it with too much force - so I thopught let me set it to a much lower setting just to see if I would hear it click or jump - indicating the setting was reached.  Well I set it to about 30 ft/lbs and kept pushing - still no click?  So either I am a weaklling (maybe we could get your girlfriend to help me out rrocket (joking) or I just don't know what the %^& k I am doing - also true!!  I am over 200 lbs in weight - I could have kept pushing but it just did not feel right.  So after several attempts I gave up and just tightened the fronts purely by guessing - I may try again later.  If any one has any ideas on using a torque wrench please let me know.  Maybe my next attempt will take about an hour, blur911 - I hope.  As far as bleeding the brakes I think I will make an attempt myself but if that does not work - getting the air bubbles out I was just thinking of taking it in to the dealer and getting them to do it - would I request them to bleed the brakes or just change the brake fluid?  I just had it done last year (changing the brake fluid) - should have waited.

Ok I will keep you updated - those guys at CT should be calling any minute - I hope.  Thanks again.

[blur911]

As far as bleeding the brakes I think I will make an attempt myself but if that does not work - getting the air bubbles out I was just thinking of taking it in to the dealer and getting them to do it - would I request them to bleed the brakes or just change the brake fluid?  I just had it done last year (changing the brake fluid) - should have waited.

You cannot drive the car until after you bleed the brakes.   You won't have any braking power until you do so therefore you can't get it to the dealer unless you have it towed.
And yes, the little nipples on the calipers are for bleeding it.  Two person job unless you have a vacuum pump.

[blur911]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda... now I guess I know what not to do for the next time.  It's been something so far - in a good way - I still am glad I made the attempt even if I needed a bit of a kick start. I am still waiting for CT to call and let me know to go pick up the new calipers.  Yes, rrocket, you are right that manual would have made things a lot easier.  Now I figure I am practicaly half done - pronounced cheap - I hope it (being cheap) does not bite me in the arse.  The order for removing the rears - never occured to me since the fronts went so smoothly - with the exception of the slight squeeking on the drivers side - but I think I am going to get back to that after I am done with the rears.

Yes that was my logic re. the rears. I thought the fronts probably wear out at a faster rate since most of the weight is up front and the bias is probably set to slightly favour the front from the factory.  Well I thought just do all fours since I am getting my hands dirty anyway.  To my surprise there was about half as much pad material left on the rear as compared to the front?  Go figure?  Exactly opposite of what I thought was going to happen?  I checked our other car (truck) and noticed that the front's were wearing faster than the rears - as expected.  Who knows maybe the factory got it messed up and set the bias to favour the rear - perhaps because it's front wheel drive - I am just guessing here?  Or maybe like tortoise mentioned the rears seized up and wore the pads down at a faster rate?  I am thinking I will check the manual - if they have an open one at CT when I go to pick up the rear calipers.

I'm thinking Tortoise is right.  The fact you found a problem with the caliper on the rear leads me to think it was seizing on the sliders which will wear out pads.  Also driving with the parking brake forgotten on can do a number on them.  Rears don't do a lot of work under braking, that's why they are usually much less powerful than fronts.