Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats

[johngenx]

But that begs the question, did those Audi have throtle by wire back then?

No, they did not.  There was no plausible explanation of why the brakes would suddenly fail at the same time as the engine would race out of control.  Of course, the drivers speculated that the car simply overwhelmed the brakes, which is nonsense.

It took some security camera footage to finally prove some of the people liars, and then it seemed to fade away.  When DBW systems came out, I just figured that it would give people a new excuse.

[Juke1]

It would be interesting to find out how many of the 2000 people that reported the issue (or the 19 that died in related accidents) are seniors. On the other hand how come we don't hear similar complaints for Buick since it's often associated with the senior drivers?
I know someone who drove thru the wall into a Tim Horton's. He is not a senior but an anti-talent when it comes to driving. Probably a good candidate for Canada's Worst Driver.

We could include Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Impala, Oldsmobile, Lincoln and Cadillac(old & rich:))  So de we have data that says old people use the gas pedal to stop those cars, crashed and died?  Let's remember that Toyota had a few recalls in the past that were in fact related to surging.

[safristi]

[quote ]

, but they've been dormant for some time awaiting a new technological scapegoat.  Here it is.
[/quote]'''''''''''''''dormant......hMMM........LET SLEEPING MATS LIE............

[Juke1]

But that begs the question, did those Audi have throtle by wire back then?

No, they did not.  There was no plausible explanation of why the brakes would suddenly fail at the same time as the engine would race out of control.  Of course, the drivers speculated that the car simply overwhelmed the brakes, which is nonsense.

It took some security camera footage to finally prove some of the people liars, and then it seemed to fade away.  When DBW systems came out, I just figured that it would give people a new excuse.

Well here I disagree, we are looking at a number of modules communicating on a bus, decision/adjustments are made on input from various sensors, conditions etc.  Complex code has been written to manage these systems, a bug and the right(wrong) conditions resulting in a failure is not far fetched.  We see this all the time in so many things ran by microcontrollers, personally having spent the most part of my working life in security systems, flashing systems with a new load to correct problems is common.  How many times people have had their Camry TCM reprogrammed to try and correct the chronic flaring problem?

[johngenx]

Sure, it's possible, but DBW systems were in cars for many years without failures (well, lots of failures, lookin' at you BMW, but not in open throttle position) but most people didn't even know their car had them.  It was only a matter of time until lawyers in the US figured it out.

[rrocket]

 Let's remember that Toyota had a few recalls in the past that were in fact related to surging.

But let's no confuse a surging engine ECU recalibration with run-away out of control cars.  MANY cars have had voluntary recalls for engine ECU updates.  Most recently it was VW with the Tiguan and Passats.

Let me see what I can turn up at FARS as far as deaths related to driver pushing/using wrong controls.

[Juke1]

 Let's remember that Toyota had a few recalls in the past that were in fact related to surging.

But let's no confuse a surging engine ECU recalibration with run-away out of control cars.  MANY cars have had voluntary recalls for engine ECU updates.  Most recently it was VW with the Tiguan and Passats.

Let me see what I can turn up at FARS as far as deaths related to driver pushing/using wrong controls.

But let's no confuse a surging engine ECU recalibration with run-away out of control cars.

Huh...no confusion here, being related is possible, pretty clear to me.

Look at it this way, surge then restore to normal....phew...that was scary.  Surge and lock up on the other hand......

[johngenx]

A common problem with an Air Mass Meter failure on Mercedes models is a surging.  It can be a safety problem as it's unexpected, but if your sitting at an intersection with the brakes on, well, you can quickly (in a few feet, or less) hold the car.  If it continues, simply engage neutral and/or switch the engine off.

Long ago I had a Camaro that had a failure of the throttle return spring.  I'd installed a new carb and was testing the car and only had one return spring on it.  My dummy fault, but yes, the car was "unintended" at full throttle.  Now, this was a VERY powerful highly modified V-8 car, sporting twice the hp of even today's V-6 models.  I easily braked, shut the car off, and fixed it.

See, in the old days, people thought that things like return springs might wear/break, and you would need to be able to shut the car off and stop.

[rrocket]

 Let's remember that Toyota had a few recalls in the past that were in fact related to surging.

But let's no confuse a surging engine ECU recalibration with run-away out of control cars.  MANY cars have had voluntary recalls for engine ECU updates.  Most recently it was VW with the Tiguan and Passats.

Let me see what I can turn up at FARS as far as deaths related to driver pushing/using wrong controls.

But let's no confuse a surging engine ECU recalibration with run-away out of control cars.

Huh...no confusion here, being related is possible, pretty clear to me.

Look at it this way, surge then restore to normal....phew...that was scary.  Surge and lock up on the other hand......

A locked up accelerator would not be a surge then, would it?  I don't think we need to argue what a "surge" is.  If you research the surge issues regarding the Toyotas (it seemed more prevalent in the Lexus ES330 line) the surge was between 1st and 2nd gear only.  The car would surge/uneven RPM making if a bit difficult to modulate the throttle at low speeds.  That is a far, far cry from a car suddenly accelerating, the brakes not working, neutral unable to be found and the car unable to shut off...

A surge is one thing..a locked up accelerator is another.

[ovr50]

From the Wiki site on "60 Minutes" Audi "unintended acceleration" fiasco:

"Unintended acceleration
On November 23, 1986, 60 Minutes aired a segment greenlit by Don Hewitt, concerning the Audi 5000 automobile, a popular German luxury car. The story covered a supposed problem of "unintended acceleration" when the brake pedal was pushed, with emotional interviews with six people who sued Audi (unsuccessfully) after they crashed their cars, including one woman who had killed her six year old boy. Footage was shown of a Audi 5000 with the accelerator moving down on its own, accelerating the car, after an expert witness employed by one of the plaintiffs modified it with a concealed device to cause it to do so.[19] Independent investigators concluded that this was most likely due to driver incompetence, where the driver let their foot slip off the brake and onto the accelerator. Tests by Audi and independent journalists showed that even with the throttle wide open, the car would simply stall if the brakes were actually being used.[20] Some claims were made that this was in part due to a slightly closer placing of the pedals than in many American cars, which allows smoother driving for greater fuel efficiency and more control in an emergency situation.

The incident devastated Audi sales in the United States, which did not reach the same level for another fifteen years. The initial incidents which prompted the report were found by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Transport Canada to have been attributable to operator error, where car owners had depressed the accelerator pedal instead of the brake pedal. CBS issued a partial retraction, without acknowledging the test results of involved government agencies.[21]

A rival to 60 Minutes, Dateline NBC, would be found guilty of similar tactics years later regarding fuel tank integrity on General Motors pickup trucks."

[articsteve]

 

[safristi]

  JACKSON FIVE........................... ..sing "RUNAWAY!!!!................     run run runaway...........

[Juke1]

http://www.detnews.com/article/20091120/AUTO01/911200383/Toyota-s-image-under-scrutiny

[articsteve]

Sure isn't hurting sales. 

It's gonna take a lot more BS than runaway car accusations to turn off Toyota and Lexus customers. 

Sorry ppl, despite the best efforts of it's adversaries to poison the well, the Toyota/Lexus juggernaut has only begun. 

[blur911]

Sorry ppl, despite the best efforts of it's adversaries to poison the well, the Toyota/Lexus juggernaut has only begun. 

I'm channeling Saffy

[Juke1]

http://charlottesville.injuryboard.com/defective-and-dangerous-products/misleading-toyota-recall-sparks-criticism-from-nhtsa.aspx?googleid=274816

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/09/toyota_prius_mats.html

[airbalancer]

http://charlottesville.injuryboard.com/defective-and-dangerous-products/misleading-toyota-recall-sparks-criticism-from-nhtsa.aspx?googleid=274816

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/09/toyota_prius_mats.html

To get a mat in 2010 Prius to get jammed on the gas pedal you have to a complete moron
Factory ones do have hooks to keep them in place, which are pain to remove, also the mats are pretty short and do not reach the pedal

Have replaced the factory ones for Michelin ones for the winter

[tenpenny]

I can see it now; Ontario will bring in a new law specifically outlawing floor mats in cars.

[tpl]

I can see it now; Ontario will bring in a new law specifically outlawing floor mats in cars.

Nope the law will insist that floor mats have the snowflake in mountain logo AND be approved by the people who approve kiddy seats... maybe even an ankle protecting airbag in the mats.   Why go half way when you can be really annoying.

[johngenx]

Perhaps using the wrong floor mats will become part of the street racing law?