Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats

[rrocket]

So now we have to have special "failsafe" systems that do what?  Only allow WFO throttle for 1 second and then the engine shuts down?  Cripes.

Yea..because it's waaaayyy to hard to just put a car in Neutral...

[tenpenny]

So now we have to have special "failsafe" systems that do what?  Only allow WFO throttle for 1 second and then the engine shuts down?  Cripes.

Yea..because it's waaaayyy to hard to just put a car in Neutral...

Probably right up there with not letting the floor mats get the accelerator stuck.

[HeliDriver]

I couldn't read the badge on the back, but I hope for their sake this wasn't a Toyota: Yet another tragic unintended acceleration incident.

[rrocket]

^^OMG!!!   

[Leviathan]

Toyota to fix accelerators after largest ever US recall

By Mark Kleis

Toyota will soon fix or replace the accelerator pedals on up to 4 million Toyotas and Lexus vehicles in the US. This comes after Toyota Corp’s largest-ever recall of 3.8 million vehicles over potential for a loose floormat to force down the accelerator causing unintended acceleration.

The report coming from the Kyodo news stated that Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) had been discussing the need for a solution beyond the replacement of floormats and are in the final stages of agreeing upon a solution.

According to the report, it is likely that Toyota will voluntarily repair or replace the accelerators out of approximately 4 million vehicles in the US. The report suggests that Toyota preferred this solution as they do not believe that the vehicles’ pedals are defective – and thus do no warrant an official recall.

The NHTSA indicated today that at this time the decision on what parts will need to be replaced or repaired is still under investigation – suggesting that the accelerator pedal is only one of the possible fixes under consideration at this time.

Hideaki Honma, a Toyota spokesman, said that Toyota and the NHTSA have not reached an agreement on this matter and that talks are on-going.

The report also pointed out that the vehicles most likely to be targeted by the eventual solution will include the Toyota Prius, Camry, Avalon, Tacoma and Tundra as well as the Lexus IS250, IS350 and ES350 models.

Since 2000 there have been over 2,000 documented cases of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles, and as many as 19 deaths from resulting crashes – Federal regulators say that is far more than any other automaker has experienced.

A class-action lawsuit filed on behalf of victims of unintended acceleration accidents against Toyota is still in early stages at this time.

[Leviathan]

I wonder if any other makes will be doing something similar. The accelerator got stuck on me twice in the Sentra.

[articsteve]

If there is any substance to these "unintended acceleration" claims then it's certainly not the mats, but rather something on the electronic side which would be a catastrophe for Toyota.

The accelerator fix will be a shorter pedal which I suppose will get the NHTSA off their case.  Dunno if it's coming to Canada, but it's good for dealers.  I'm certainly not going to have the wife's car done because I don't want a shorter pedal.  This is pure politics, because it has absolutely zero merit.

Here's a pic of the OEM Toyota winter mat.  I've unhooked the floor clip to move it forward.    Printed on it in both languages:

"DO NOT PLACE ON EXISTING FLOOR MAT"

 I suppose they should have a dash sticker as well stating:

"AVOID CONCRETE WALLS AT HIGH SPEED"     

[safristi]

I'm all ............... up at your concern................

[Juke1]

For the pedal to get caught open full throtle, would one not have to floor the car?  Am I the only one that does not buy this?


Toyota looking beyond the mats
Fixes discussed in giant recall
BY GREG GARDNER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

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Del.icio.us Reddit Newsvine Federal regulators and Toyota Motor Corp. are discussing whether the automaker needs to fix gas pedals or floor pans in millions of recalled vehicles instead of blaming floor mats, which the automaker had maintained was the source of unintended acceleration cases.

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The talks are the result of new evidence from safety tests and allegations in some lawsuits, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which has received more than 400 complaints about acceleration problems that include several fatalities.

In September, Toyota -- which built its reputation on quality -- asked owners of 3.8 million Camry, Prius and other models to remove driver's-side floor mats as part of the company's largest-ever U.S. recall.

But now, the automaker is discussing the gas pedal and floor pan repairs, Karen Aldana, a NHTSA spokeswoman, said Tuesday.

Still, lawyers are pointing to other potential problems.

Attorneys for Guadalupe Alberto allege a malfunctioning electronic throttle control caused her 2005 Camry to surge from less than 25 m.p.h. to about 80 m.p.h. in 2008. She died after her car hit two trees, despite the brakes being pressed. The lawyers say the Camry had no driver's-side mat in place.

Toyota continues to deny that electronic technology was a factor in any reported case of unintended acceleration, said spokesman Mike Michels. He said Toyota wants to fix any engineering or mechanical flaws that testing reveals.

Deaths blamed on sensors
Alberto's case provides an ironic twist in the Japanese automaker's effort to contain its largest-ever U.S. recall.



Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a representative of her estate.



The suit names as defendants Toyota and Denso International, a major supplier based in Southfield, which produced the electronic throttle control system that Alberto's lawyers charge malfunctioned.



Specifically, the Alberto lawyers allege the accident was caused by "the vehicle's propensity for confusion in the sensors and electronics processors" in the throttle control unit "as the result of transient signals."



"Intermittent radio waves or electronic interference will lock down the cruise control and the brakes won't override the system," George Hilborn, a Birmingham lawyer and one of six lawyers for the Alberto estate, told the Free Press on Tuesday.



Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which have been investigating cases of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles, say multiple tests that looked for problems in the electronic engine controls have not yet shown any defect or malfunction.



Earlier this month, Toyota mailed letters to owners of models being recalled asking that they make sure they have the correct driver-side floor mat for their model. If so, it must be fastened to hooks on the floor.



If not, Toyota said owners should remove it. Toyota also warns owners not to flip the floor mat over or place one mat on top of another.



But Alberto's Camry had no floor mat on the driver's side, the lawyers said in the lawsuit.



The letter also advised that owners who experience a sudden surge in speed should step on the brake with both feet, but do not pump, shift to neutral or turn the engine off while the car is in motion. For those models with a stop-start engine button, Toyota recommends pushing the button for three seconds.



Getting to the root cause of the problem is a core tenet of the Toyota manufacturing system. Some of the unintended acceleration cases, including several fatal accidents, have involved models from its Lexus luxury brand.



The automaker is committed to finding and fixing other possible contributing factors.



Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said the type of computer-controlled system in Toyota's cruise control has multiple backup capabilities that would counteract something like the Alberto lawyers' alleged radio wave interference.



But Toyota is not saying its request that owners of about 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles remove or replace driver-side floor mats is the ultimate fix.



"We don't have a comment on a particular technical fix," Michels said. "It will be a vehicle-based remedy. When that is developed, we will announce it."



NHTSA spokeswoman Karen Aldana agreed with Michels that the throttle control system has not caused unwanted acceleration in extensive testing by the agency. NHTSA and Toyota are looking closely at adjustments to the gas pedal itself or to the floor pan beneath it, Aldana said.



Contact GREG GARDNER: 313-222-8762 or ggardner@freepress.com

[johngenx]

Ah, here it FINALLY comes.  I knew the drive by wire systems were going to get the target from the "I can't drive" crowd.

These mysterious cases of the car developing 2000hp and turning into a raging animal hell bent on destroying the human population have been around for some time, of course, but they've been dormant for some time awaiting a new technological scapegoat.  Here it is.

[Juke1]

This is over 5 years old http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/toyota_surge.html

[blur911]

These mysterious cases of the car developing 2000hp and turning into a raging animal hell bent on destroying the human population have been around for some time, of course, but they've been dormant for some time awaiting a new technological scapegoat.  Here it is.

Here's an interesting if unscientific test of a Camry by a fellow on a local forum I'm also on:

On monday I did some mid and high speed testing.... Under WOT between 60 and 130km/h at about 5-6K rpm the brakes work fine and hauled the car down pretty quickly.... Its really weird flooring the gas and flooring the brake at the same time..... Ours is only a four banger so maybe the six with another 100 hp would be a different story. Also shifting into neutral under WOT was no problem ....so I think were safe for now.

[rrocket]

Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a representative of her estate.

What?  A 77 year old female driver involved in an "unintended acceleration" case?  C'mon...I find that sooo hard to believe...

[johngenx]

What?  A 77 year old female driver involved in an "unintended acceleration" case?  C'mon...I find that sooo hard to believe...

Yeah, it seems about twice a week we have someone older that drives their car through the convenience store window, the back of their garage, or recently, off the roof of a parking garage thanks to "unintended acceleration."

[rrocket]

What?  A 77 year old female driver involved in an "unintended acceleration" case?  C'mon...I find that sooo hard to believe...

Yeah, it seems about twice a week we have someone older that drives their car through the convenience store window, the back of their garage, or recently, off the roof of a parking garage thanks to "unintended acceleration."

If you've ever seen videos of these things, the first thing out of their mouth is "the brakes weren't working"

[vdk]

I say Toyota is going after ex-GM employees... 

[ovr50]

What?  A 77 year old female driver involved in an "unintended acceleration" case?  C'mon...I find that sooo hard to believe...

Yeah, it seems about twice a week we have someone older that drives their car through the convenience store window, the back of their garage, or recently, off the roof of a parking garage thanks to "unintended acceleration."

If you've ever seen videos of these things, the first thing out of their mouth is "the brakes weren't working"

That stuff goes on here constantly. Once in a while, one senior will admit that he/she pressed the gas instead of the brake. But most say, not my fault, brakes failed or accelerator got stuck. It always happens on cars driven by seniors also...funny about that.

Furthermore, there are still ppl that think that Audi cars really did have "unintended acceleration" back in the 80s; even after the TV news program admitted they falsified the entire thing. Meh. 

[carcrazy]

It would be interesting to find out how many of the 2000 people that reported the issue (or the 19 that died in related accidents) are seniors. On the other hand how come we don't hear similar complaints for Buick since it's often associated with the senior drivers?
I know someone who drove thru the wall into a Tim Horton's. He is not a senior but an anti-talent when it comes to driving. Probably a good candidate for Canada's Worst Driver.

[rrocket]

It would be interesting to find out how many of the 2000 people that reported the issue (or the 19 that died in related accidents) are seniors. On the other hand how come we don't hear similar complaints for Buick since it's often associated with the senior drivers?
I know someone who drove thru the wall into a Tim Horton's. He is not a senior but an anti-talent when it comes to driving. Probably a good candidate for Canada's Worst Driver.

Because it's evil Toyota, of course!  For instance, why hasn't the press latched on to the fire fatalities supposedly caused by Jeep fuel tanks?  254 deaths!!  And not a peep out of the media.  19 deaths from supposed accelerator pedals (which is likely driver error)?  Now that's news!!   

[Juke1]

What?  A 77 year old female driver involved in an "unintended acceleration" case?  C'mon...I find that sooo hard to believe...

Yeah, it seems about twice a week we have someone older that drives their car through the convenience store window, the back of their garage, or recently, off the roof of a parking garage thanks to "unintended acceleration."

If you've ever seen videos of these things, the first thing out of their mouth is "the brakes weren't working"

That stuff goes on here constantly. Once in a while, one senior will admit that he/she pressed the gas instead of the brake. But most say, not my fault, brakes failed or accelerator got stuck. It always happens on cars driven by seniors also...funny about that.

Furthermore, there are still ppl that think that Audi cars really did have "unintended acceleration" back in the 80s; even after the TV news program admitted they falsified the entire thing. Meh. 

But that begs the question, did those Audi have throtle by wire back then?