Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats

[Erik]

This is really not meant as a shot against Toyota, but in my experience, Toyota's are often purchased by the least car savvy of people. They really don't want anything more than a reliable transportation appliance, and Toyota has a history of making incredibly reliable, cheap to run and inoffensive automobiles. So is this not really a Toyota issue at all, but just a result of their winning so many people who just don't care to understand how cars work?
 Of course, the other side of it is that driver training in North America is just abysmal. Would be interesting to see how often this would happen in a country like Finland, for instance, where you really have to EARN the right to drive.

Just some thoughts...

[wing]

It takes a LONG time to accelerate to 120mph, what about all the time between then?  I don't know some people are just inept behind the wheel.  I managed to a do a complete 360 in the middle of the road as my car started to slide on black ice once, I was actually on my cell at the time, I kept talking palmed the wheel corrected the slide and continued on my way safely... while talking....

[Erik]

It takes a LONG time to accelerate to 120mph, what about all the time between then?  I don't know some people are just inept behind the wheel.  I managed to a do a complete 360 in the middle of the road as my car started to slide on black ice once, I was actually on my cell at the time, I kept talking palmed the wheel corrected the slide and continued on my way safely... while talking....

Yes, but you actually know how to drive.....

[Juke1]

It takes a LONG time to accelerate to 120mph, what about all the time between then?  I don't know some people are just inept behind the wheel.  I managed to a do a complete 360 in the middle of the road as my car started to slide on black ice once, I was actually on my cell at the time, I kept talking palmed the wheel corrected the slide and continued on my way safely... while talking....

Curious, how many cars around you? alone?

From on article on the web:

One remedy being considered by Toyota implicitly acknowledges what critics have been saying for almost 10 years: that the company's highly computerized engine control system lacks a fail-safe mechanism that can quickly extinguish sudden acceleration events, whether they are caused by floor mats, driver errors or even unknown defects in the electronic control system, as alleged in some lawsuits.

I wonder how many cars are equipped with a failsafe.

I tested my Altima this morning, driving at 80 I jammed the brakes and the car came to a stop quickly enough, engine was at 1500RPM when stopped.  I can't tell if any kind of mechanism kicked in, never tried this before.

[johngenx]

Even without the vacuum assist, a car generates in excess of 1000hp of braking capability.  People might be surprised by the hard pedal, but the car will still brake with the ability to overcome the engine's power.

True that Toyota needs to solve the floor mat problem, but there is a 60 Minutes - Audi smell to this.  Every make has been targetted by "sudden acceleration" claims, and over the last 25 years, it's all been bunk.  I figured when drive-by-wire systems become standard, people would begin anew with it.

Just search it.  I can find reports for pretty much every brand.  People look for any excuse to deflect blame.

[safristi]

  ............................It's NO ma fault.................EX SQUEEZE MEEEEEE

[HeliDriver]

Even without the vacuum assist, a car generates in excess of 1000hp of braking capability.  People might be surprised by the hard pedal, but the car will still brake with the ability to overcome the engine's power.

True in theory, but I wonder how it plays out in practice.

With stock brake pads, I used to get only a handful of hard stops on the Civic before the pads glazed over and braking was severely compromised. And then there's the problem of boiling the fluid.

Witnesses said there were flames flashing from beneath the car, so something was obviously pretty hot under there. With the throttle wide open, I'm thinking you'd have only one chance to get on the brakes HARD, and stay on them HARD until the car stops. If you ride them a bit, or don't have the strength to mash the pedal, I could see the brakes fading and becoming useless in short order.

[safristi]

wot were the "witlessness" err witnesses doing UNDER THE CAR

[airbalancer]

So the mats were from a different Lexus, the car was loaner, brother in law in the back seat made the call
Way would he not drop the tranny in N?
Are all Lexus push button start?

http://i.usatoday.net/money/_pdfs/09-1026-nhtsa-memo.pdf

[dorin]

There's no excuse for not knowing how to maneuver a transmission into neutral.  There's also no excuse for not reading the information about how the push button works once the car is moving.  This is just one of those stories that confirms just how many drivers are really incompetent and should not be on the road.  I'll never understand the North American aversion against proper driver training and testing.

[tenpenny]

There's no excuse for not knowing how to drive, but it seems to work for about 50% of drivers.

You can always find someone else to blame.

[dr_spock]

There's no excuse for not knowing how to drive, but it seems to work for about 50% of drivers.

You can always find someone else to blame.

Accepting responsibility is a rare trait.

[quadzilla]

Does anybody know how long you have to hold the push button start/stop when you are just turning off the car normally? IE: The car is in park, do you still have to hold it for 3 seconds or does it just go off with the first push?

I also believe there is more to the story that we will never know. Like how did the accelerator get stuck in the first place? IE: Wouldn't you have to push it quite hard to get it stuck in/on the mat. So if the vehicle was already driving down the hwy how hard did he have to press on the gas to make this happen?

[airbalancer]

You have hold the button for 3 seconds
I think you would have to look at the inside of Lexus to see how a mat would jam the gas to stay on

[safristi]

..Nice ..ah..... suit there Amerikans..................... ...i "loves"  the RUNAWAYS..........................

[blur911]

Even without the vacuum assist, a car generates in excess of 1000hp of braking capability.  People might be surprised by the hard pedal, but the car will still brake with the ability to overcome the engine's power.

True in theory, but I wonder how it plays out in practice.

With stock brake pads, I used to get only a handful of hard stops on the Civic before the pads glazed over and braking was severely compromised. And then there's the problem of boiling the fluid.

Witnesses said there were flames flashing from beneath the car, so something was obviously pretty hot under there. With the throttle wide open, I'm thinking you'd have only one chance to get on the brakes HARD, and stay on them HARD until the car stops. If you ride them a bit, or don't have the strength to mash the pedal, I could see the brakes fading and becoming useless in short order.

Good points, I once put "regular" pads on my 911 midway through a track day.  They could handle about 4 applications before the pedal effort went up crazily and they became very ineffective.  These were "warrantied for life" good brand name pads, they just aren't made for repeated intense applications.  Now couple that with no power assist and it spells disaster.
I've also driven an Audi 5000 around the track  when the hydraulic power assist accumulator ran out of juice, it probably took 200lbs+ pressure to slow it down, and I still couldn't get the ABS to engage.

So, I agree, he probably had one good chance to lay on the brakes and get it stopped, pumping them or letting the vehicle get up to speed again and well...   we see what eventually happened.

Still don't understand why he didn't shift into neutral, reverse, park, anything.   The 3 second button to stop thing is ridiculous.  There should be a big red E-stop button like there's always a hazard flasher button.

At work we have to design machines to stop quickly enough that if someone took a running jump into spinning parts of it, it would stop before they landed.  How can it take 3 seconds to stop a car engine in an emergency? That's ludicrous.

[dr_spock]

That's also assuming the electronics behind the start button are functional.   I had cases where my computer locked up and the on/off button did nothing.  Yanking out the power cord was the only option.  I prefer old fashioned mechanical linkage than these new fangle electronic controls in between.
 

[tenpenny]

That reminds me of the article I read in Automobile about their 4season test of the Jag XF.  The battery went dead, completely dead, and the editor didn't know there was a hidden key slot for the trunk, and they couldn't open the trunk with the electronic lock, and they couldn't open the glove box with the electronic lock to read the owners manual, so they had to give the car a small charge through the fuse panel, until it had enough power to open the trunk, so they could get at the battery.

[dr_spock]

Toyota owners rebellion?

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=8980479

ABC News
Owners of Toyota Cars in Rebellion Over Series of Accidents Caused by Sudden Acceleration
ABC News Investigation Uncovers Reports of 16 Deaths, Over 200 Accidents; Toyota Owners Demand Answers
By BRIAN ROSS, JOSEPH RHEE, ANGELA M. HILL and MEGAN CHUCHMACH

Nov. 3, 2009 —

Refusing to accept the explanation of Toyota and the federal government, hundreds of Toyota owners are in rebellion after a series of accidents caused by what they call "runaway cars."

Safety analysts found an estimated 2000 cases in which owners of Toyota cars including Camry, Prius and Lexus, reported that their cars surged without warning up to speeds of 100 miles per hour.

CLICK HERE FOR MORE OF THE RUNAWAY TOYOTAS STORY.

Toyota says the incidents are caused by floor mats becoming stuck under gas pedals, but owners say that's not what happened to them.

Watch the full report tonight on 'World News with Charles Gibson' and 'Nightline'.

"I'm absolutely certain that in my situation, it was not the floor mats," Elizabeth James told ABC News. She was driving her Toyota Prius outside Denver, CO when she says it suddenly shot up to 90 miles an hour, even though her foot was on the brake and not the gas pedal.

"I kept going faster and faster," James said. "And all of a sudden& my foot was pressing on the brake super, super hard and I wasn't slowing down."

James and some other Toyota owners suspect the accidents have been caused by some kind of glitch in the electronic computer system used in Toyotas that controls the throttle.

Toyota officials refused to talk with ABC News about the incidents, but posted a statement from executive Bob Daly on its website last night that said: "Some news reports suggest there may be other causes of unintended acceleration, speculating about electronic engine control systems, braking performance or electro-magnetic interference among other theories. There is no evidence to support these theories."

Click here to watch the video of Toyota's full statement.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has done six separate investigations of such acceleration surges in Toyotas since 2003 and found no defect in Toyota's electronics.

The U.S. Department of Transportation released a statement Tuesday afternoon saying the matter "is not closed."

The full statement read: "Toyota has announced a safety recall involving 3.8 million vehicles in which the accelerator pedal may become stuck at high vehicle speeds due to interference by the driver's side floor mat, which is obviously a very dangerous situation. Toyota has written to vehicle owners stating that it has decided that a safety defect exists in their vehicles and asking owners to remove all floor mats while the company is developing a remedy. We believe consumers should follow Toyota's recommendation to address the most immediate safety risk. However, removal of the mats is simply an interim measure, not a remedy of the underlying defect in the vehicles. NHTSA is discussing with Toyota what the appropriate vehicle remedy or remedies will be. This matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the vehicle defect by providing a suitable remedy."

Some Toyota Owners Point to Problem Other than Floor Mats

Many Toyota owners remain convinced that an electronic problem is to blame.

Bulent Ezal was driving with his wife of 46 years in their Toyota Camry in central California, when he says it suddenly took off. The car plunged over a 100 foot cliff into the Pacific ocean, and while he survived, his wife did not.

"All of a sudden the car surged with force and I was thrown back to the seat," Ezal said. The last thing he heard was his wife screaming before he blacked out. Toyota says the accident was caused by Ezal mistakenly pushing the gas pedal, but Ezal is adamant that his foot was "absolutely, positively on the brake."

There have been other deaths as well, including a fatal accident near San Diego this August that took the lives of California Highway patrol officer Mark Saylor, his wife, daughter and brother-in-law.

The Lexus they were driving, borrowed from a dealer, raced out of control at 100 miles an hour before hitting another vehicle, crashing into an embankment and bursting into flames.

Right before the crash, Saylor's brother-in-law called 911 from the backseat of the vehicle and said urgently, "Our accelerator is stuck. We're in trouble&There's no brakes."

Toyota said the problem was the wrong-sized, all-weather rubber floor mat in the car which was caught and held down the gas pedal. The company ordered a huge floor mat recall for 3.8 million cars.

In Tokyo, the president of Toyota, Akio Toyoda, formally apologized, saying, "Four precious lives have been lost. I offer my deepest condolences."

But many Toyota owners remained unconvinced, including Elizabeth James in Denver, CO and her husband Ted. They organized a YouTube campaign accusing Toyota of gross negligence and cover-up and are demanding answers.

To see more of ABC News' investigation, tune in to 'Nightline' tonight.

Click Here for the Blotter Homepage.

Copyright © 2009 ABC News Internet Ventures

[quadzilla]

She was driving her Toyota Prius outside Denver, CO when she says it suddenly shot up to 90 miles an hour, even though her foot was on the brake and not the gas pedal.

"All of a sudden the car surged with force and I was thrown back to the seat"

I'll take words not often heard from Toyota drivers for $1000 Alex.

* Disclaimer: This is in no way to make fun of those that have been hurt or worse by what has happened.