Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats

[Cord]

While it looks like the media smells Toyota blood in the water, this article makes a number of interesting points regarding unintended acceleration incidents. I suspect that many manufacturers' products suffer the same flaws as the ES300 noted in the article.

When I first heard the story of this car driving out of control for miles over 100mph, I, like many people, thought the standard, "why didn't he just turn off the engine?" or "why didn't he shift it into neutral?" The driver was a CHP officer, so I think we can safely say that he likely had better driver training than most. Yet he still couldn't stop his car when his floor mat allegedly jammed the gas pedal to the floor. It's easy to sit back and pass judgement but how many of us when faced with an unfamiliar car suddenly at full throttle would have the presence of mind to think that the engine button needs to be held down for more than three seconds? How many of us would be able to navigate an unfamiliar gated shifter into neutral while trying to steer a car going over 100 mph through traffic? And how many of us would realize that the power assist for the brakes would not exist at full throttle?

Whether anything beyond the floor mat caused the throttle to jam is unknown. However, I think this article points out the need for some additional fail-safe features to complement the advanced electronics in modern cars. I think a system that cuts power when the brakes are applied at the same time as the throttle would be a start.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall18-2009oct18,0,739395.story?page=1

[Sir Osis of Liver]

The mat on my old Escort GT pinned the throttle wide open one day on a busy street in Fredericton. I pushed the clutch in, reached down and pulled the mat back as the engine danced with the rev limiter. Problem solved.

A lot of drivers just seem to panic, then do something stupid. Better driver training would make a huge difference.

I suspect the issues are more with the drivers than the cars.

[rrocket]

I still don't see why he didn't push it into neutral....especially for someone with so much supposed training.  IIRC there can't be any type of lock-out device for pushing a car into neutral for emergencies just like these.  That's why from D to N is a simple push up...no lock out. 

And beyond that...he used a wrong floor mat without cutting out the area around the accelerator.  I used non-stock rubber winter mats in my cars..but I'm always careful to cut out the area around the accelerator pedal.  I agree about the push button starter though....who would know to hold it for 3 seconds?  But that's why you have neutral I guess.....

[articsteve]

I think this article points out the need for some additional fail-safe features to complement the advanced electronics in modern cars.

How many ppl died today because of an out of control engine in a car?

How many Americans were killed by a gun today?

How many Americans died today prematurely from obesity and physical inactivity?

Why is it today ppl seek more and more insignificant regulations in an effort to keep the world more over populated. 

[wing]

I still don't see why he didn't push it into neutral....especially for someone with so much supposed training.  IIRC there can't be any type of lock-out device for pushing a car into neutral for emergencies just like these.  That's why from D to N is a simple push up...no lock out. 

I agree with the first part -- just slap it in doesn't matter how it is "gated".  But unfortunately not all cars go from D to N with a simple push.  For some VERY ODD reason Ford has decided they would be the only manufacturer to lock out N, you have to push the button in, be careful not to hit reverse or park in your panic!

[rrocket]

I still don't see why he didn't push it into neutral....especially for someone with so much supposed training.  IIRC there can't be any type of lock-out device for pushing a car into neutral for emergencies just like these.  That's why from D to N is a simple push up...no lock out. 

I agree with the first part -- just slap it in doesn't matter how it is "gated".  But unfortunately not all cars go from D to N with a simple push.  For some VERY ODD reason Ford has decided they would be the only manufacturer to lock out N, you have to push the button in, be careful not to hit reverse or park in your panic!

Ok...big f-ing deal.  You have to push a button with your thumb.....and even if you hit reverse in an emergency, that would certainly scrub off speed...

[vdk]

 
 
 

Officer the floor mat jammed the gas pedal I swear ! ! ! !
Okay son, have a nice day!

[dr_spock]

It was a loaner Lexus, so why not slam it into R if you missed N?

[rrocket]

It was a loaner Lexus, so why not slam it into R if you missed N?

Exactly!  Heck, even if it's not a loaner, in a life or death situation, who cares if you wreck the tranny?  IMO that would be the least of your worries...

[Cord]

I think many of you overestimate your ability to control a strange car that has unexpectedly accelerated at full throttle.

The mat on my old Escort GT pinned the throttle wide open one day on a busy street in Fredericton. I pushed the clutch in, reached down and pulled the mat back as the engine danced with the rev limiter. Problem solved.

That's great. But not really the same situation as the automatic transmission equipped, 272 hp car in question.

I agree with the first part -- just slap it in doesn't matter how it is "gated".

If the shifter is in "autostick" mode, it would take more than a simple "slap" for a panicked driver to find neutral at 120 mph (190 km/h). And once you found neutral, how fast do think you'd slow down from that speed with no braking power?

Again, I don't think many of you are considering the sense of panic that must have occurred as the driver tried to maintain control going 120 mph through traffic, not being able to shut off the car and finding the brakes totally ineffective. How many drivers have even driven at 190 km/h let alone in a situation like that?

(PS. Excuse me if I withdraw from this conversation now. I just don't have time for this "deleting cookies" BS every time I want to post. Hopefully I see the memo when it's fixed.)

[rrocket]

Again, I don't think many of you are considering the sense of panic that must have occurred as the driver tried to maintain control going 120 mph through traffic, not being able to shut off the car and finding the brakes totally ineffective. How many drivers have even driven at 190 km/h let alone in a situation like that?

Ummm...ok.  So it was such a panicked situation that someone had time to take out their cell phone, dial 411, wait for it to be picked up, then have a coversation to dispatch giving directions where they're at, how fast they are going, what route they are travelling...this went on for a good little bit of time.  Yet the driver is too panicked to push the tranny into neutral?

[IceAndFire]

Not in the case of the Lexus but in the case of a Camry or a Prius that I was reading about some months ago the driver was unable to get the car to go into Neutral despite best efforts.  Apparently the car would also not shut off (Push Button Start).

Does concern me a little.  Hopefully never happens to me... or anyone else for that matter.

[HeliDriver]

I found a picture of the ES350 gear selector. The neutral position isn't immediately obvious (to me, anyway): I had to look at it for a bit before I figured out (I think) where neutral is. And I had the luxury of doing it at my computer, not while trying to keep a car on the road at 120 mph while weaving through rush hour traffic.

It didn't say in the article, but I wonder if that gearshift has a mechanical link to the transmission, or if it's purely electronic? Maybe the car's brain wont let you shift into R or P while the car is moving. In that case, you would have to find N precisely, or nothing would happen. Or maybe there's a glitch in the programming that simply locks out neutral when the engine is at full throttle.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I think many of you overestimate your ability to control a strange car that has unexpectedly accelerated at full throttle.

The mat on my old Escort GT pinned the throttle wide open one day on a busy street in Fredericton. I pushed the clutch in, reached down and pulled the mat back as the engine danced with the rev limiter. Problem solved.

That's great. But not really the same situation as the automatic transmission equipped, 272 hp car in question.

I agree with the first part -- just slap it in doesn't matter how it is "gated".

If the shifter is in "autostick" mode, it would take more than a simple "slap" for a panicked driver to find neutral at 120 mph (190 km/h). And once you found neutral, how fast do think you'd slow down from that speed with no braking power?

Again, I don't think many of you are considering the sense of panic that must have occurred as the driver tried to maintain control going 120 mph through traffic, not being able to shut off the car and finding the brakes totally ineffective. How many drivers have even driven at 190 km/h let alone in a situation like that?

(PS. Excuse me if I withdraw from this conversation now. I just don't have time for this "deleting cookies" BS every time I want to post. Hopefully I see the memo when it's fixed.)

I actually read the article this time. Kinda scary as described in the article.

I referenced the Escort only to say that it had happened to me, and that with a manual box itès pretty easy to deal with.

I never liked the separate auto start buttons. Just another step and potential point of failure.

 

[articsteve]

May remembers Saylor for his conservative politics, strong Christian faith and love of sports. Saylor played baseball for many years, until he was injured by a drunk driver while on duty four years ago. The injuries also led Saylor to transfer from CHP road duty to a position testing drivers and examining heavy vehicles.

The ES 350 was traveling north of Highway 125 and as the car approached the end of the freeway at Mission Gorge Road, either Saylor or Chris Lastrella could be heard on the cellphone call saying, "pray, pray."

A 50-second cellphone call was placed to 911 just before the crash, in which Chris Lastrella told a dispatcher that the accelerator was stuck and that the brakes weren't working.

Ummm...ok.   So it was such a panicked situation that someone had time to take out their cell phone, dial 411, wait for it to be picked up, then have a coversation to dispatch giving directions where they're at, how fast they are going, what route they are travelling...this went on for a good little bit of time.  Yet the driver is too panicked to push the tranny into neutral?


Ummm .... here too.

I wonder if the driver was on painkillers.  This whole incident must have lasted for about 2 minutes.  I'm thinkin possible suicide.  It's just too far fetched that is high speed driving expert took this amount of time to figure out his gas pedal was stuck or at to least start down shifting.  In addition he was a CHP heavy vehicle inspection vis-a-vis his accident so you would think he was mechanically aware.  Nope, I think this guy was looking to take him and  his family to the promised land.

[rrocket]

Ummm .... here too.

I wonder if the driver was on painkillers.  This whole incident must have lasted for about 2 minutes.  I'm thinkin possible suicide.  It's just too far fetched that is high speed driving expert took this amount of time to figure out his gas pedal was stuck or at least start down shifting.  In addition he was a CHP heavy vehicle inspection vis-a-vis his accident so you would think he was mechanically aware.  Nope, I think this guy was looking to take him and  his family to the promised land.

That's a pretty big leap, Steve...LOL.  I'm not inclined to think that.  But yea..the episode lasted at least 1 minute plus. Maybe is just didn't occur to him to shove it into neutral.  Maybe he thought his driving skills could save the day?  Who knows.......

[articsteve]

That's a pretty big leap, Steve...LOL.

Well that's my job here, right?  

"conservative politics, strong Christian faith"  In my word that is code for WACKO.

"love of sports",  that is until he was run down.  Couple that with being dumped into the truck inspection job because of the injury and perhaps residual chronic pain and BINGO, you gotta a guy on a mission.  Who in their right mind says "pray" when your about to crash into a car at 120 mph.  In addition, why did he take another car out with him.  It's a freeway .... pick a spot and drive off the road.  He was supposedly a trained professional high speed driver.  

As for the Toyota style gate shifter, please folks give me break.  All the guy had to do was shove the stick forward.  He had at least 1 1/2 minute to try it.  

 

[quadzilla]

Has anybody seen in any article at what rate of speed he was driving when it all started to happen. I believe he was on a freeway so anywhere between 60-80mph? Not that makes any difference but just curious.

When I get into somebody's car to drive it I take some time to get a feel for everything and how it works. I thought most people would do this.

Also how does the gas pedal get stuck on the mat to begin with? Is it wedged into the mat?

I have a hard time believing all these stories about how he was CHP and vehicle trainer but doesn't know how to push a shifter into neutral. Something about the whole things just sounds off.

[safristi]

Quote "sounds OFF"........so it woz  a MatHatter ArticS  Rug..then..................I'ze prayin' fer ya BUB...... .............since when can an engine outpower the brakes..........and speed a car from 70mph or so to 120MPH/    frikkin B/S alarm goes off here...

[dr_spock]

Maybe Toyota need to install a big kill switch for emergencies.  Label it with "Press here if you can't figure out the hold 3-sec on our starter button or how to find N on our shifter mechanism when gas pedal is stuck under our mat."