Author Topic: Replaced battery, now starter is 100% dead? WTF? (Read 3044 times)

curls · « **on:** October 03, 2009, 05:38:41 pm »

My wife's 02 Mazda Protege5 has had a weak battery for some time now, and finally today it wouldn't crank the engine over enough to start it, so I replaced the battery with a new one (Motomaster).

However, all we get is the "click", NO cranking at all, not even a noise other than the click (which comes from a pushrod type thing next to the intake manifold on the passenger side). I verified the battery wasn't a dud by trying to use the one from my car and it made no difference, so the new battery is fine.

Would this mean the starter is likely toast now? Is it just a weird coincidence that the starter died on the same day as the battery, or did the battery cause some problem with the starter? What can I do to test this?

I have the service manual and the starter doesn't look too hard to remove although I have to take the damn battery out again (remove strut bar, fiddle with damn tie-down, etc...). Can I test the starter on my own when out of the car by connecting 12V from the battery to the proper terminals on the starter?

Any insight GREATLY appreciated as my wife is currently without a car, and she can't (isn't allowed!) to drive my manual transmission Acura. LOL. I value my clutch.

Thanks,
Eric

Railton · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2009, 05:52:36 pm »

Are the connections to the battery really tight? If so, you're going to need to check the wiring from the battery to the starter and the ground as well.
On a car built 6-7 years ago these things happen.
Railton

curls · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:03:56 pm »

Quote from: Railton on October 03, 2009, 05:52:36 pm

Are the connections to the battery really tight? If so, you're going to need to check the wiring from the battery to the starter and the ground as well.
On a car built 6-7 years ago these things happen.
Railton

The connections are very tight as I just did them myself and used dielectric grease on the terminals as suggested by a number of people. I'll check the cabling, grounds, and starter itself tomorrow. I was looking for the starter (which is hidden under the battery) so I could tap it with a broom handle in case it was one bad brush in the starter itself (old trick) but I couldn't even find the damn starter, LOL!

rrocket · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:06:10 pm »

I was gonna say it sounds like it's not grounded properly...

curls · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:08:23 pm »

Its at least grounded enough to get the lights, radio, and fuel injector rail working via 12v electrical. I guess that could still mean the ground isn't good enough for the high-draw starter but I'd think there would at least be a groan from the starter, not dead silence.

I'll look into it more tomorrow AM.

Thanks,
Eric

safristi · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:18:58 pm »

.....BIGGER BROOM HANDLE..............

.....................are your terminal connectors "toast" i.e dirty,wiring frayed,ground post gungy(like yer navel fluff?)....................also clean up the terminal posts and leave off the grease (for NOW) shine all those fackers like yer at BOOT CAMP and Capn CRUNCH is after yer PRIVATES..............amd LOCK'EM DOWN TIGHTER than a POLANSKI DATE...................

and then does yer lights dim when ya(do CRANK???..................maybe a crappy tired battery then......................have them do a full physical.............

curls · « **Reply #6 on:** October 03, 2009, 08:05:16 pm »

Quote from: safristi on October 03, 2009, 07:18:58 pm

.....BIGGER BROOM HANDLE.............. .....................are your terminal connectors "toast" i.e dirty,wiring frayed,ground post gungy(like yer navel fluff?)....................also clean up the terminal posts and leave off the grease (for NOW) shine all those fackers like yer at BOOT CAMP and Capn CRUNCH is after yer PRIVATES..............amd LOCK'EM DOWN TIGHTER than a POLANSKI DATE...................

and then does yer lights dim when ya(do CRANK???..................maybe a crappy tired battery then......................have them do a full physical.............

I normally don't have a clue what you're saying (lost my Saf Decoder ring I got in a Cracker Jack box one time). But I will wipe off the terminals of grease tomorrow and try again, although I thought the dielectric grease could only help?

The connections are on very tight (any tighter and it'd strip), and the terminals were clean as can be. Maybe I'll use my terminal cleaner to add some "surface" scratch to them tomorrow but I've never experienced that being a problem on a brand new battery before.

curls · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2009, 01:58:38 pm »

OK, I've been working on diagnosing the problem all day thus far and have followed the troubleshooting procedures in the service manual to a T.

1 - Battery condition and Battery connection (OK)
2 - AT in Park or Neutral (OK)
3 - Clicking from Starter? No - go to step 4 (below)
4 - AT range switch inspection (passed OK)
5 - Connect code reader and read DTC's if any (I don't have a code reader, so I can't perform this step).

The "No code" for step 5 would tell me to check START circuit in ignition cylinder, but the car won't start with the remote start either meaning it isn't the ignition cylinder/key tumbler. Also I get a CLICK from a small plunger type thing on the intake manifold (far from the starter). I believe this is the VICS plunger according to the manual and is a vacuum-related part that I guess opens when the butterfly opens or fuel is injected(?). So the fact that there is SOMETHING happening when I turn the key means the START circuit is OK.

I believe the problem is with the starter but am looking for more advice here. The starter is in an absolutely horrible spot. I can only access one of the 3 bolts. The other 2 cannot even be FOUND, let alone removed. I can't get a multimeter in there to test the leads going into the starter, either. Damn engineers.

What can I do here guys -- ANY advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Eric

Railton · « **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2009, 02:13:50 pm »

Before taking the wrenches to the starter try two more easy things;
1 give the starter body a good wrap with the hammer.
2 if you have another car to borrow try boosting the battery. I know you think your battery is ok but I've seen the extra wallop of a boost work past shitty connections.
Railton

curls · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2009, 04:12:32 pm »

Quote from: Railton on October 04, 2009, 02:13:50 pm

Before taking the wrenches to the starter try two more easy things;
1 give the starter body a good wrap with the hammer.
2 if you have another car to borrow try boosting the battery. I know you think your battery is ok but I've seen the extra wallop of a boost work past shitty connections.
Railton

I tried both of those things (and I took out some frustrations on the starter w/ the hammer, LOL!). Also the boost method didn't produce a single symptom different from the non-boosted attempts.

I finally got the starter out (had to remove the intake tubing and vacuum hoses but its done). I took it to CT to have them bench-test it under load and of course their tester is broken. So is the tester at the next-nearest CT. ARGH. I'll bring it to the one by my office tomorrow AM and go from there I guess.

At this point I suspect its either the starter solenoid that's toast (hence no clicking from it to engage the starter), or the starter cable is defective (corrosion isn't exactly uncommon in these parts, LOL). I hate this car.

Railton · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2009, 04:23:26 pm »

How did the cable look when you disconnected it from the starter?
Was it on tight?
Railton

safristi · « **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2009, 04:38:39 pm »

"sealed lips" quote don't sink zinc lead batteries ...............seems like yer gonna have to suck it UP............never heard if U "cleansed" ALL the connective BITS......i.e scraped the crud orff 'em....polished then to a shine and re engaged TIGHTLY?

.....sometimes the Ocams razors can slice and dice and make a clean connection..................

to recap Mazda cranking slow but almost starting.......then NEW BATTERY..........and KA_BOOM........NADA?....................IF you really have ensured CONNECTIVITY at all major points i,e Battery posts,,,the connectors themselves and their crimped ON/soldered wiring...and that those wire go to where they should and connect cleanly as does the "EARTHLINGS

".... then maybe POP in a friends battery ( agood one ) and report back...............

jamie1 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 04, 2009, 04:39:34 pm »

You have the starter out,the bench test is easy now. Reading your posts,you have battery booster cables. Connect the cables to the battery,red to + and black to -. The other red end to the cable terminal on the starter. Hold the starter down on a bench and touch the other black end to the body of the starter. Starter runs,you have other problems,starter does not run,you found the problem. Make sure the engine ground is good and clean.

curls · « **Reply #13 on:** October 04, 2009, 05:31:13 pm »

Quote from: jamie1 on October 04, 2009, 04:39:34 pm

You have the starter out,the bench test is easy now. Reading your posts,you have battery booster cables. Connect the cables to the battery,red to + and black to -. The other red end to the cable terminal on the starter. Hold the starter down on a bench and touch the other black end to the body of the starter. Starter runs,you have other problems,starter does not run,you found the problem. Make sure the engine ground is good and clean.

I thought there was a load test that they said they did at CT, but thinking about it, if I don't even HEAR the solenoid, a load test wouldn't help me yet as the solenoid wouldn't care if there was load or not, it'd click regardless. That is why the solenoid, IMO, might be bad. I'll check tomorrow - it's raining and the car is in the driveway and not the garage.

Quote from: Railton on October 04, 2009, 04:23:26 pm

How did the cable look when you disconnected it from the starter?
Was it on tight?
Railton

Looked good and was on very tight.

Railton · « **Reply #14 on:** October 04, 2009, 05:57:21 pm »

Must be the solenoid/starter then.
Railton
BTW, Does the car normally sit outside?

curls · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2009, 06:44:12 pm »

car normally outside, yes.

OK So I bench tested the starter just now using a good battery. I connected POS to the large copper bolt on the starter, and NEG to the starter casing itself. Jumped the large copper bolt to the other large (non-copper) bolt, and the starter DID spin, but did NOT move outwards (as if to engage the flywheel).

However, since this means that the starter motor might possibly still work, I need to know if my bench test was accurate. The reason I'm worried is that there was a lead on the solenoid that used a smallish spade connector, but this lead was not involved in my bench test. Was this perhaps the ignition signal wire that energizes the solenoid?

Basically there were 3 connection points (plus a ground - the casing): The large copper one that had the POS from the battery when I removed it from the car. The large but non-copper bolt that I jumped to the copper one (to get the starter to test kinda ok?). And the spade connector that was not involved in my test.

Any ideas?

PJungnitsch · « **Reply #16 on:** October 04, 2009, 07:11:46 pm »

Yes the small connector connected to + should energize the solenoid, engaging the starter gear which at the same time should bridge those two big connectors internally and spin the starter motor.

On the heavy equipment on the farm a common problem was too much voltage loss through the ignition switch circuit to give that small connector enough power.

curls · « **Reply #17 on:** October 04, 2009, 07:24:34 pm »

Quote from: PJungnitsch on October 04, 2009, 07:11:46 pm

Yes the small connector connected to + should energize the solenoid, engaging the starter gear which at the same time should bridge those two big connectors internally and spin the starter motor.

On the heavy equipment on the farm a common problem was too much voltage loss through the ignition switch circuit to give that small connector enough power.

So the time I did try that (switched spade terminal to the big + connector), and it yielded complete silence, prety much means the starter solenoid is shot, correct? Time to replace the damn starter to the tune of a few hundred bucks?

PJungnitsch · « **Reply #18 on:** October 04, 2009, 08:32:56 pm »

Impossible to know for sure without seeing it (and a manual) but I would guess so. Phone around, rebuilt units can be pretty cheap, the one for my truck from CT was 123.00.

curls · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2009, 08:57:34 pm »

Ok so after getting a new starter from my local parts guy (No Limits Auto Parts, in Ottawa), and swearing a lot on the install, the car still did not start. (I had to get a new starter because upon reinstallation of the old one the damn copper lug/bolt snapped off and ruined it... DAMNIT).

It turned out that the female spade connector that is signalled from the ignition switch wire, and hooks up to the starter solenoid wasn't making contact -- it was corroded like crazy. It was still showing fine as per the voltmeter (long thin probe maybe scratched off some corrosion and registered as normal 12V when the igition key was in "START"), but when its installed on the starter it wasn't making a connection, hence the solenoid didn't get the signal to start.

F'n $2 part failure just cost me over $200. ARGH.