2004 Montana Transmition slipping I think???

[Jester13]

Hi everyone,

I hoping to get an answer from someone with GM trany experience.  Here is the background:

- Bought 2004 Montana about a month ago with 146K on it.
- Drove for a month without any noticable problems.
- Decide that Trany and coolant are do for a change so bring it in to mechanic (not dealer) for flush and fill of both.
- After Trany change, notice that it is not shifting smoothly into first, I think it is refered to as slipping but since I don't really know, I will describe exactly what is happening.
- After coming to a stop, when I remove my foot from the brake and press on the gas normally, the van will only move forward as if I did not press the gas (creep or crawl), then suddenly jerks into first.  This all occurs in about 1 second.
- It seems to shift normally in all other gears.  It only happens occasionaly but will say a few times a day.  Does not seem to matter about temp outside or of van itself.  If I ease on the gas, it doesn't happen.  Not 100% sure since I've only had a chance to try this a few times but it seems also to not happen if I manually shift the gears from 1, 2, 3, D.

- Only thing done so far was that the fluid was a little low, mechanic did not put totaly full so he topped it up.  Problem still occuring.

Not beeing a mechanic myself, but beeing a technical person with troubleshooting experience, hear are my impressions:

1- No problems before fluid flush and change, but problem after fluid flush and change indicates to me that the flush and change is where the problem may have started.
2- Could used dealer I bought it from do something to trany that would hide this problem and the flush and change uncovered it?
3- Could the mechanic have done something wrong or missed something during the flush and change that caused this to happen?
4- Could the generic trany fluid that he used be causing the problem?

Any other thoughts or comments about what might have caused this and what I could do about it would be greatly appreciated.

[Honda Owner]

I have considerable experience with GM transmissions, having worked for GM for several years as a service advisor. Having not seen the car I cannot make an definite diagnosis but I can give some hints. First of all, the GM 4 sp auto is a good unit. Failures are not common but like any machine, they happen.

- Bought 2004 Montana about a month ago with 146K on it

Here is your main problem. You do not know the history of the car. The main question would be has it been used for towing. If there is a hitch receiver and wiring chances are it has. At your mileage, transmission failures in vehicles that have towed are very common

1- No problems before fluid flush and change, but problem after fluid flush and change indicates to me that the flush and change is where the problem may have started.

This is often the case. However, in my experience it is because the owner left the transmission oil change too late. When it was actually done, the mileage was getting high. Soon after the fluid change, problems started, which may or may not be coincidental. They only way you are going to know for sure is by tearing it down.

2- Could used dealer I bought it from do something to trany that would hide this problem and the flush and change uncovered it?

Very unlikely. Used car dealers do as little as possible before the sake so they don't have to spend money on the car and thus subtract from the gross.

3- Could the mechanic have done something wrong or missed something during the flush and change that caused this to happen?

Yup. Many mechanics, ahem, are not rocket scientists but a tranny flush is pretty straight forward. They are also a waste of time unless you do proper pan drop and filter replacement while you are at it.

4- Could the generic trany fluid that he used be causing the problem?

If the incorrect fluid was used, your problem may well be that but I would find that highly unlikely. Dexron II has been around for about 50 billions years. Pretty hard to screw that up.

Your problem will get worse and worse until the transmission fails. My advice would be to get it repaired or rebuilt before it strands you in a one lane bridge at -40'C. Shop around and get the best deal.

[articsteve]

Decide that Trany and coolant are do for a change so bring it in to mechanic (not dealer) for flush and fill of both.

The "flush" probably did you in.  Very dicey to take a tranny with 150k km/6 years of use on fluid that should have been changed every 50K and then "flush" it.

3 "dump and fills" with a few 100 kms in between would have been the way to go.

[Roddy]

I have considerable experience with GM transmissions, having worked for GM for several years as a service advisor. Having not seen the car I cannot make an definite diagnosis but I can give some hints. First of all, the GM 4 sp auto is a good unit. Failures are not common but like any machine, they happen.

- Bought 2004 Montana about a month ago with 146K on it

Here is your main problem. You do not know the history of the car. The main question would be has it been used for towing. If there is a hitch receiver and wiring chances are it has. At your mileage, transmission failures in vehicles that have towed are very common

1- No problems before fluid flush and change, but problem after fluid flush and change indicates to me that the flush and change is where the problem may have started.

This is often the case. However, in my experience it is because the owner left the transmission oil change too late. When it was actually done, the mileage was getting high. Soon after the fluid change, problems started, which may or may not be coincidental. They only way you are going to know for sure is by tearing it down.

2- Could used dealer I bought it from do something to trany that would hide this problem and the flush and change uncovered it?

Very unlikely. Used car dealers do as little as possible before the sake so they don't have to spend money on the car and thus subtract from the gross.

3- Could the mechanic have done something wrong or missed something during the flush and change that caused this to happen?

Yup. Many mechanics, ahem, are not rocket scientists but a tranny flush is pretty straight forward. They are also a waste of time unless you do proper pan drop and filter replacement while you are at it.

4- Could the generic trany fluid that he used be causing the problem?

If the incorrect fluid was used, your problem may well be that but I would find that highly unlikely. Dexron II has been around for about 50 billions years. Pretty hard to screw that up.

Your problem will get worse and worse until the transmission fails. My advice would be to get it repaired or rebuilt before it strands you in a one lane bridge at -40'C. Shop around and get the best deal.

I have a few comments to make here:

First. There isn't just one GM 4 speed unit. GM has 3 widely used 4 speed transaxles in north america which are the 4t40, the 4t60/4t65 and the 4t80. Each one has its own week points but of the three the 4t40 is generally the most problem free. In the montana the 4t60 is used and it in all honesty is far from great as far as durability goes.

You are correct in that what exactly is wrong with this transmission is impossible to diagnose over the net

[Jester13]

Great responses guys.

I guess the first thing I'll do is call the place that did the flush and fluid change and find out if the pan was dropped and the filter changed.  To me it just makes common sense that if you are going through the effort of completely flushing the old fluid out and replacing it with new stuff, that the pan should be cleaned and filter changed.  I guess that would be my bad for assuming common sense would prevail.  At the very least, I would have expected that the mechanic should have informed me of that option if it wasn't included in the price.

I will also inquire as to exactly what type of fluid would have been used.  When I spoke to the guy on the phone and made the appointment, he assured me that they would use Dexron 4, in his words "we have plenty of bottles of that stuff around".  After I picked it up, I inquired about the next time I should change the fluid, and he said after 50K.  At the time it struck me as odd because according to what I've read, Dexron 4 is supposed to be good for a long time like 200K or something like that.  Then he mentioned to the service advisor that it was the generic stuff so it has to be done at 50K.  When I saw him toss the bottle that he used I noticed that it was "Penzoil" and figured that maybe the "Penzoil" stuff doesn't last as long as the dealer stuff.  Now I'm wondering if the "Penzoil" product is actually universal fluid and maybe that is why I'm now having problems.

Another thing I would like to mention is that the van does have a tow hitch.  I can see your point about vehicle towing being harder on the vehicle but why would that problem only show up after the flush?  My wife and I drove it for a month and did not feel that jerk into first once in that time.  Before I bought it, I had the vehicle inspected, and a trany guy looked at it because it had a tow hitch.  They did not find any problems, and when hooked it to the code reader there were no trouble codes for the engine or trany.  It seems more than coincidence that the day after the flush this started to happen.  Plus, why would I not detect the problem when I manually shift through the gears?

I guess what it will come down to in the end is that I will have to take it to a transmition shop and have them look at it to tell me exactly what is wrong.
I was wanting to get advice from someone with experience first so that I don't go in blind.  So if you guys have any more hints or ideas about what the problem might be, please let me know.

I did see a thread on another forum that had a guy with  a 2003 Montana and his description of the problem seemed to match mine word for word.  Some people mentioned that he may have to change a part I think called a "solenoid"??  It had to do with the part that tells the trany when to change gears.

I have a three month power train warranty which will cover $1000 worth of repairs, if I can find a place that will deal with "Coast to Coast" warranties .  The place that I took it to for the flush said that he won't deal with them because thay take months to pay the shops for the repairs.

Oh the joys of buying a used vehicle.

[HeliDriver]

There are lots of transmission flush stories on the net that read just like yours.

Might want to give this a read: http://autotechrepair.suite101.com/article.cfm/040206 . Sounds like your situation to a T.

[Ontariodriver]

First thing that comes to mind after quick scan of this topic. Is the Torque converter.

These Mini Vans are really bad. Fix it and flog fast before it will cost you even more money. 

[tpl]

First thing that comes to mind after quick scan of this topic. Is the Torque converter.

These Mini Vans are really bad. Fix it and flog fast before it will cost you even more money. 

Caveat. I am not an expert or even knowledgeable on Automatic transmissions.

But assuming it has the right level of some fluid what can go wrong with a torque converter?

Input turbine, stator to improve efficiency , output turbine.  I think most of them have a lockup clutch but I'd hope that would fail into the not locked position.

Do they not work like that anymore?

I know that the planetary gearbox with its wet clutches and the fluidic logic full of small oilways and valves behind the torque converter can die in all sorts of complicated ways but I would have thought that the converter should be good for ever.

[Jester13]

Update on the transmission issue.

I called Midas back and inquired about what exactly was involved with the fluid flush that they performed.  As he was explaining things to me, my face cringed.

- first of all, apperantly logic and common sense does not prevail in mechanics.  Even though they nicely flushed all of the "Gunk and garbage" out of my trany, they did not drop the pan and replace the gasket and filter.   There is an extra cost associated with that and it was never brought to my attention when I initially brought the van in.  When I brought this to his attention, he offered to drop the pan and change the filter for me and only charge me for the parts.

- second thing, they used universal fluid but he assured me that it is specifically made for GM dexron 4 vehicles.  He also mentioned that there was an additive that I could use which might help with the slipping problem.  My thought on this is that if they are going to drop the pan and change the filter with no labour cost, maybe I should bring my own fluid for them to use?  On that note, should I bring Dexron 4 from the dealer, or some sort of good synthetic stuff?

- Third thing, they performed a reverse flush , for which I have heard many horror stories about since clumps of debris could be knocked loose and get trapped in smaller passageways.  If this is the case, is there anything I can do about that, like maybe an additive?

As usual, any input would be greatly appreciated .  My appointment for the filter and gasket change is on Tuesday.

[articsteve]

Surely you JEST.  You are making this up right?   

Might as well get the filter changed.  His cost on the filter and gasket will be $20. so you will soon see if your getting them for "cost". 

If this is the case, is there anything I can do about that, like maybe an additive?

I answered this in your other thread.  TRANSMEDIC from Gunk is your only hope.  Tell those pirates that messed up your vehicle to leave at least 2 litres of spare capacity after they drop the pan.  I think the pans only holds 3 litres.  You might need 2 bottles of Transmedic.

[Jester13]

Right.  Well he quoted me $38 for the filter and gasket kit which I'm sure has their markup built into the price.  But they would normally charge 1 hour of labour, which he waived due to my transmission troubles.

As for the Trans-medic, I do remember now that you mentioned that in the other topic.  I deleted the other topic since I felt it was no longer relevant to the original reasons that I posted it.

I will buy the trany treatment and bring it to Midas and get them to put it in while they are filling the trany fluid.  Their suggestion was to use the "Lucas" transmission treatment.  Do you think that product might be better since it is synthetic?  Perhaps I should buy 2 or 3 liters of it and put that in instead of the DEXRON.

If you still think I should go with the "Transmedic", Canadian Tire only sells it in 355ml bottles which means I could get them to add 3 bottles (equals approx 1 liter) and then fill the rest with DEXRON.

What do you think?

[articsteve]

The Midas "brand" has really slipped in the last decade.  Each shop is individually owned and operated, but many are owned by the same outfit.  Recently Midas stopped contracting their own brake parts.  Now all a Midas shop does is call the local jobber and get the cheapest parts possible.  It will be the same with the various transmission fluids ... the absolute no name cheapo stuff.

PPL:  Avoid Midas at all costs.  The entire business model is luring ppl in the door with "specials" and then selling them stuff they don't need.  Worse part is they attract mechanics, and only usually one guy is actually licensed, who stink and are attracted to the Midas commission scheme.

JESTER:  Putting Lucas ANYTHING in your tranny would be the FINAL KISS OF DEATH.  Get them to change the filter ONLY.  Go to Crappy and buy 2 litres of brand name Dexron.  Whatever version suits your car.  Buy 2 bottles of the Transmedic.  You can always take one back.  Get the FOOLS to add them to your tranny.  However, if I were there I'd add it out in the parking lot myself.  This will require a very thin stemmed funnel.  However, if you can't do that then stand outside the service bay door and make sure these pirates actually add it.

Go for a 1/2 hour drive immediately.  If it doesn't get back to normal by that time then you're SOL, but lesson learned.  Everyone has been there in some way or other.  Good luck, SIR!

[Roddy]

First thing that comes to mind after quick scan of this topic. Is the Torque converter.

These Mini Vans are really bad. Fix it and flog fast before it will cost you even more money. 

Caveat. I am not an expert or even knowledgeable on Automatic transmissions.

But assuming it has the right level of some fluid what can go wrong with a torque converter?

Input turbine, stator to improve efficiency , output turbine.  I think most of them have a lockup clutch but I'd hope that would fail into the not locked position.

Do they not work like that anymore?

I know that the planetary gearbox with its wet clutches and the fluidic logic full of small oilways and valves behind the torque converter can die in all sorts of complicated ways but I would have thought that the converter should be good for ever.

Most common t/c failures are to do with the stator one way clutches. This is particularly nasty as it usually results in metal filings being circulated around the transmission which disagree with seals and oil pumps amongst other things. Of course the lockup clutch can also wear in modern t/c's as well.

[Jester13]

Well folks, I went to midas and the deed is done.  Immidiately after the service, and on my way to work this morning, I did not notice any problems but as I mentioned before this only happens occassionaly so I'll have to wait and see.

Of course as they test drove it once before the service and 2 times after the service, it did not slip at all (I was in the car with him).  Since the slip is happening so occasionaly, it is hard to show somebody.

I'll update this post if I notice that the problem is continuing or is gone.

[Roddy]

Well folks, I went to midas and the deed is done.  Immidiately after the service, and on my way to work this morning, I did not notice any problems but as I mentioned before this only happens occassionaly so I'll have to wait and see.

Of course as they test drove it once before the service and 2 times after the service, it did not slip at all (I was in the car with him).  Since the slip is happening so occasionaly, it is hard to show somebody.

I'll update this post if I notice that the problem is continuing or is gone.

I don't mean to sound discouraging but it's likely only a very temporary thing. When you replace transmission fluid it helps hardened seals swell a bit temporary masking the issue. It's not a fix any more than changing oil will fix a spun rod bearing.

[blur911]

I don't mean to sound discouraging but it's likely only a very temporary thing. When you replace transmission fluid it helps hardened seals swell a bit temporary masking the issue. It's not a fix any more than changing oil will fix a spun rod bearing.

A spun rod bearing doesn't go away, since this is an occasional problem I doubt there is real physical damage done, it's likely something sticking due to clogged passages and goo in the wrong places. 

Hopefully for Jester13 this is the case, although you might certainly be right and something is worn out or damaged.

[Jester13]

Well how long has it been now, 1.5 weeks, maybe 2 since I had Midas put the additive in.  Low and behold, the transmission has started to slip again.  Seemed to be fine for those 2 weeks though.

I have played with Midas enough now, time to take it in to a transmission shop.  I have heard that the warranty company that I have, "Coast to Coast Warranty", is not well received with many of the mechanics around here, so I called "Coast to Coast" to see if they could recomend a shop that they have had good dealings with.  Of course the guy on the phone said that I shouldn't have any problems taking it anywhere and that they have no problems with any of the shops in the Ottawa area (bull@#$%).  But he was nice enough to give me the names of 2 places that they deal with often.  One was called "727 Transmissions", and the other was called "Mister Transmission".

Now I have heard enough bad things about "Mister Transmission" that I will not go there.  Has anyone heard of "727 Transmissions"?  Any other recomendations in the Ottawa area?  I need some place that will provide good workmanship at reasonable prices since the warranty will only cover $910 worth of repairs.  Maybe Crapy Tire would be better than these other two I mentioned?


It's so hard to beleive that there could be anything major wrong since it drove beautifully before I had the flush done but I am now at the point where I will have to leave it to the professionals.

My warranty expires November 13 so time is of the essense.  I need to try and find a place by this weekend, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[johngenx]

727?  Named after the indestructible Torqueflite.  I'd talk to them and see if I got a good vibe.  Are they a chain store?

[mar1990]

I would recommend B&N Transmission.  I used them to replace transmission #2 on my windstar.  (Transmission #1 was replaced by under warranty by Ford).   I had the option with them rebuilding the tranny with a 1 year warranty, or going with a reman unit with a 2 year warranty.  We went with option #2.  About 1 month before the warranty expired, the OD light was flashing. They repaired the transmission no hassles and no charge.  It turned out to be a solenoid.  I think they removed the transmission because the housing had been cleaned to check for leaks.    A few weeks later, the transmission was stuck in second, check engine light and OD light came on.  They rechecked their work and found nothing wrong with the transmission.   They suggested that I take it to my regular mechanic or they can have a look.  I gave them the work. In the end they did charge me to diagnose and find a corroded power wire.

I learned that limp home mode for a transmission is to go to second gear.   

Most of you are probably asking why we would replace the transmission a second time, and just not get rid of the van.  We were in the same boat as one of the other posters deciding on if they should get rid of their van.

I've quoted here on the 03  Montana with the head gasket issue, because it was a similar situation, and we felt the same way.

I know that the vehicle to anyone else is junk given its age and km's even with a working engine.  We have been contemplating another vehicle but truthfully the wife likes the van and it was very practical.  The van is worth something to us - if it was working.  Initially I was dead against putting $2300 into it again (i.e. a used engine) just to have something else go wrong but later thought that if it lasted another year it wouldnt be too bad.  Can swing $2300 easier than $16,000 for something decent (Rav4, > '06 entourage, > '06 sedona, etc, etc) or new ($30,000).

In the end we did have to sink more money into the van, but we did get two and a half years out it. 

[tortoise]

I'll second B&N.  I've never been there, but the indie shop that I go to (and really, really like) recommends them. 

Were you going to the Midas on Bronson?  I bought my last truck there once.  I found they were pretty good on the sales part, but brutal on the service part.  They often forgot to do things I'd asked, and what work they did do was done poorly.