Topic: CD Article - "Shopping for a new Sonata - the experience."

[Wheelboy]

Here's an interesting read at CD, from a buyer's perspective -

Edit - the site won't let me post the article's link so go to CD and look for the article.  It's worth it.

The readers' comments at the end are interesting too.

[rrocket]

In Car and Driver?  I've posted links from there often...

[Wheelboy]

In Car and Driver?  I've posted links from there often...

As I'm a Newb (less than 10 posts or some rule like that) they don't trust me not to spam you with a money-making link.  I guess it's soooo hard for a mod to remove one eh?   

That CD is "Canadian Driver" by the way.

Edit - Let's try again now I'm up to 11 posts -

http://www.canadiandriver.com/2009/09/15/feature-shopping-for-a-new-sonata-the-experience.htm

Yaayyyy I guess I'm one of The Trusted now.  I'm so happy.   

[Flinter]

Interesting read and lots of unhappy buyer comments at the end. For many people the buying experience is definitely not a pleasant.

I've often wondered why someone hasn't introduced some kind of independent consulting/buyer assistance service similar to that of a Realtor for houses. Obviously, the margins in cars aren't like that of houses but I think a lot of folks would be open to paying a nominal fee of a few hundred dollars for some knowledgeable/independent assistance through the process.

[Juke1]

I've had a similar experience with Toyota

[airbalancer]

Interesting read and lots of unhappy buyer comments at the end. For many people the buying experience is definitely not a pleasant.

I've often wondered why someone hasn't introduced some kind of independent consulting/buyer assistance service similar to that of a Realtor for houses. Obviously, the margins in cars aren't like that of houses but I think a lot of folks would be open to paying a nominal fee of a few hundred dollars for some knowledgeable/independent assistance through the process.

There are brokes out there, check yellowpages

I had no problems when I got the Prius, this is the price , this is what I will pay , here is the CC, done with 3 short phone calls
I knew what I wanted, the hard problem was trying to see one in with a sunroof as there was not many around

[toolatecrew]

Matter of time before a salesperson chimes in and either says "Im not like that, my dealer isn't like that or my personal favorite..customers cause all this with their quest for the lowest price and defensive attitudes while we just try to make a buck"

Fact is there good dealers and there are good sales people out there. They are very very few and far between. Its mostly a low paying,comission only high turnover ocupation. The pool of people you pick from simply doesn't lend itself to a high % of "good" salespeople. As a consumer you have to play the odds and the system. If there is a 95% chance that the salesperson is going to be using greasy tricks,simply running back and forth to the manager and will turn you over to a closer who will try to slap on bogus fees you need to deal with 100% of salespeople with that expection. To do otherwise would be foolish.
You simply can't hold it against consumers that they are wary of common tactics.

[Thinking Out Loud]

Perhaps Hyundai dealerships have developed a bad case of 'Hondaitis' or 'Toyotabifida' - we're big, we're successful, we're moving product like nobody's business, so take it or leave it.

I've used CarCostCanada twice and it has eliminated the noise, nonsense, and nebulouness of uneducated salespeople and nefarious pricing schemes.  I've had good and bad 'traditional' purchases over the years as well from both domestic and import brands as well.

The problem is, like Brian found out, is that you have to first SHOP for a salesperson before you even begin the actual car buying process if you want to purchase a new-car 'old-school'.   

Not everybody is a Cord, unfortunately.

[Jaeger]

I've used CarCostCanada twice and it has eliminated the noise, nonsense, and nebulouness of uneducated salespeople and nefarious pricing schemes. 

Me too.  Complete elimination of dealer BS - which I have otherwise found to be QUITE substantial.

Jaeger

[Cord]

I've always found it interesting that the stores with the worst reputations always (and I mean always) sell the most cars. Why is that? And as long as that's the case, why would they ever change their ways?

[Spheric]

It's pretty sad when a prospective customer knows more about a model (current or future) than the salesperson.

That said, I've noticed that outside the GTA the sales folks in dealerships tend to have more time for you and seem more 'human' than the ones staffing the high volume dealerships in the big suburbs. I had a great experience yesterday discussing the Elantra Touring and next year's redesigned Tucson with a knowledgeable sales rep. The personalized experience definitely made me more inclined to explore the product(s) further at that location. Ditto for the VW dealership also when I enquired about the Golf.  

[toolatecrew]

I've always found it interesting that the stores with the worst reputations always (and I mean always) sell the most cars. Why is that? And as long as that's the case, why would they ever change their ways?

Maybe becuase of lack of competion? If you look at some of the comments on the article you'll see several references to the horrible experineces in Halifax. All the dealers ion the area are controlled by one of 3 groups. For example the Oregan's goup has a monopoly on Toyota,lexus, Nissan Infiniti., Mecedes They also have Hyundai, Kia Subaru. Chances are very good that you are going to buy a car from them. They can treat you like s Hit but if you want to buy a toyota without driving for over an hour you'll eat their s hit.

Its a standard response to say "if you don't like the deal or salesperson walk out" but the fact is in many cases its either inconvienient or downright infeasible to go elsewhere.

Regardless the fact that large dealers are able to sell lots of cars while treating people like crap doesn't make it any more right.

[Honda Owner]

The basic problem in the equation is that the sales people don't make enough money to live. Over the years the margin that salesmen has been squeezed tighter and tighter. When I left GM they were giving $200 flat on everything and they actually tried to reduce it to $150. When the entire sales staff threatened to quit, the owners relented. Try making a living on $200 a car. It is impossible and that is why so many dealerships have a revolving door of sales staff. Certain models will have incentives on them for the sales staff to move and that is why customers are so often, and often successfully, moved into a car they neither want nor need. I can't count how many little old ladies I have seen with Fit Sport automatics or a Matrix XR. They need to spend the extra dosh like they need an extra hole in their heads but the dealership (and salesman) made more $$$ on the deal.

I deal firmly with dealerships. I walk in, tell them what I want, what I will pay and then show them a bank statement. No packs, fees or snake oil allowed. You either get me exactly what I want or I go somewhere else. If I have to wait for my shiny new ride for a few weeks, I will survive. Alas, may customers want their new toy NOW and a good salesman can get them saying "yes" to a lot of nonsense. Good on him, too, because his job is to make money.

[Cord]

Maybe becuase of lack of competion?

Perhaps. But in my market there is tons of competition and the stores that no one admits they would ever buy from still sell more than anyone else.

Regardless of the cause, what's going to make the poor stores change from their very profitable ways? Legislate against dealer groups? Legislate against indifferent and poor service?

There is no question that there are some good salespeople and some good stores in general. Why aren't these people and places just flooded with the business of the people that dislike the poor service they receive elsewhere?

[toolatecrew]

The basic problem in the equation is that the sales people don't make enough money to live. Over the years the margin that salesmen has been squeezed tighter and tighter. When I left GM they were giving $200 flat on everything and they actually tried to reduce it to $150. When the entire sales staff threatened to quit, the owners relented. Try making a living on $200 a car. It is impossible and that is why so many dealerships have a revolving door of sales staff. Certain models will have incentives on them for the sales staff to move and that is why customers are so often, and often successfully, moved into a car they neither want nor need. I can't count how many little old ladies I have seen with Fit Sport automatics or a Matrix XR. They need to spend the extra dosh like they need an extra hole in their heads but the dealership (and salesman) made more $$$ on the deal.

I deal firmly with dealerships. I walk in, tell them what I want, what I will pay and then show them a bank statement. No packs, fees or snake oil allowed. You either get me exactly what I want or I go somewhere else. If I have to wait for my shiny new ride for a few weeks, I will survive. Alas, may customers want their new toy NOW and a good salesman can get them saying "yes" to a lot of nonsense. Good on him, too, because his job is to make money.

The problem is deeper IMO.

The reason sales people don't (for the most part) make much money is becuase they don't bring value to justify making much money. In todays world slaespeople for cars bring almost nothing to the table. Think about it what is their function:
1. Explain features of the vehicle? The majority of auto buyers have internet access and can reasearch the heck out of the vehicle. There is very little to no iformation available to front line sales people that consumers can't get themselves.
2. Test drives? People take test drives alone all the time. If you need a "babysitter" to ensure the vehicle is not improperly driven any fool for minimum wage could do that job.
3Working for the customer taking offers to the manager? Its purley to increase the selling price. No benifit whatsoever to the customer.

Face it the only measurable value a salesperson brings is whatever increase in selling price over the average he might help contrive from the customers.

Its a process designed to squeze max dollars out of a single customer on a single sale. Reapeat busniess esentially isn't a factor. There is no long term relaitionship building. The focus is on a single transaction.

It works becuase demand for vehicles is somewhat inelastic and there are limited sales channels.

Compare it to say TVs. If I want to buy an RCA TV and I don't like the pushy sales guy at Future Shop I can go to sears. If I want more service in my purchase I can go to a private store. If I don't want any service but only the cheapest price I can go to the internet and buy a TV. As long as people WANT to buy cars and as long as the dealer channel is the only one they will continue to treat customers like crap and people will continue to put up with it.

[toolatecrew]

Maybe becuase of lack of competion?

Perhaps. But in my market there is tons of competition and the stores that no one admits they would ever buy from still sell more than anyone else.

Regardless of the cause, what's going to make the poor stores change from their very profitable ways? Legislate against dealer groups? Legislate against indifferent and poor service?

There is no question that there are some good salespeople and some good stores in general. Why aren't these people and places just flooded with the business of the people that dislike the poor service they receive elsewhere?

In order to answer your question we'd need to know how these high volume poor service dealers are different from the others. Is the dealer much larger? High volume breeds higher volume first pick of inventory, beetter incentive from manufacturer leading to better pricing, higher advertising budgets? People may not enjoy the poor service BUT they still need to buy a car. It just goes to show that good service from salespeople doesn't sell cars. Something else does

I'm usually against government intervention but in this case I think there are SOME thing sthat the government could do to make things better. As long as the playing feild is even what is the harm.

Legislate Factory MSRP stickers on all new cars. Legislate freight and PDi be included in the price and in any advertised price. Ban Admin fees (dealers would have to loby the manufactures to raise their MSRPs by $200 if they want the extra $) Make it illegal to etch cars before a sales contract is signed . None of this prevents a dealer from selling the same services they do now. It simply brings things above board.

You can't legislate good service but you can legislate transparency and consitency.

[Cord]

Legislate Factory MSRP stickers on all new cars.

Agree. Already policy of some manufacturers.

Legislate freight and PDi be included in the price and in any advertised price.

Agree. Already law in some areas including Ontario, B.C., and Alberta.

Ban Admin fees (dealers would have to loby the manufactures to raise their MSRPs by $200 if they want the extra $)

Agree. Although MSRP would have nothing to do with it. If the nation-wide Admin fee average is say, $400, then the result of banning admin fees would be that the average nation-wide transaction price would increase by $400.

Make it illegal to etch cars before a sales contract is signed .

Good luck banning any business from doing what they want with their own property. The cost of the physical etching is $0. There is only a cost if the insurance is activated. Probably what you meant was ban the making of etching a mandatory purchase. That, I would agree with.

[johngenx]

I've always found it interesting that the stores with the worst reputations always (and I mean always) sell the most cars. Why is that? And as long as that's the case, why would they ever change their ways?

In Edmonton, you'd be thinking about Derrick Dodge and places like that.  I always wondered how they do it.  They treat people like crap and sell a ton of cars.  Huh?  Well, they blow big bucks on multi-page newspaper ads, have tons of radio advertising, and it works.  They get people through the door and your typical schlub wants to go home with a new truck.  Showroom traffic equals sales, period.  Also, many of those shitty tactics get people to be invested in the sale.  Other tactics don't come until after people think the sale is done, like extended warranties and etching and other junk.

There is another thing at play here.  Jerk customers buy a lot of cars.  (My theory anyway, no supporting data, but my intuition tells me so)  Whassat?  Well, most of the people I know think very carefully about a new car purchase, even the car nuts.  We'll research, visit dealers, browse for ages, and then push the button. 

People that impulse buy something as expensive as a new car are more likely drawn in by the gimmicks and radio ads and free BBQ's and all that .  So, on a Saturday afternoon at Derrick (or place like it) we're not likely to find people like me.  It's people that are upside down from trading in their truck long before making a dent in the loan, and have done this for the last five trucks.  They need a dealer willing to do ANYTHING to get them into that new truck, and the radio ad said that THIS dealer would.  And they do.  Also, I know I'm not getting a free BBQ, it's just built into the price somewhere.  I don't want "credit card cash" as I know it's just a bunch of extra financing built into my car payment.

What happens to the auto industry when all the people that shop at Derrick aren't down impulse buying a new truck?  Can we rely on sensible and prudent shoppers?  Nope.  Look at the sales numbers for the last two years.  With the tightening of credit and the loss of employment for many blue-collar workers, auto sales have plummeted.

[Honda Owner]

The big dealers have one great advantage: tons of stock. With 500 cars on the lot, chances of having what you want are pretty good. I also note that big dealers tend to be domestic and take advantage of the demographics of their buyers very well.

[airbalancer]

The big dealers have one great advantage: tons of stock. With 500 cars on the lot, chances of having what you want are pretty good. I also note that big dealers tend to be domestic and take advantage of the demographics of their buyers very well.

The Honda and Toyota beside the Hydundi dealership in the story, is bigger then GM dealer in town
Honda new dealships are huge, with have bkes and powersports units in them