Topic: Would a Honda Service Advisor lie about the servicing that your car needs?

[sw3611]

I recently took my 02' Honda Civic in for the major service that is required after 128,00 KMS. That was $305.74, theybasically replaced the engine oil, drain plug washer, engine oil filter, transmission oil, adjusted the brakes and tire pressures and inspected other parts.

Before I went to pick up my car, he quoted another $1700. He said that The water pump needed to be replaced ($675), the front lower compliance brushings torn ($295), rear wheel cylinders-as left rear starting to leak ($365), upper and lower air filter housings ($220), and flush out & bleed dirty brake fluid ($133). I was a little overwhelmed as I was not prepared to pay over $2000 this day. Well, I didn't..couldn't if I wanted to! Just paid for the major service that was due for $305 and walked out with the quote for the additional work in hand even though he really insisted I at least get the water pump fixed.

This is my first car, I'm female and young and part of me wondered if I was a target for a rip off, so I asked some friends about water pumps. They didn't think i would have a problem if I wasn't leaking or the car wasn't making any funny noises, which it was not.

 I happened to get a flat a few weeks later and took it to Kal Tire. They did an inspection on my car for free (the visual) and afterwards they had one of their mechanics look at the water pump. They couldn't find anything wrong with the water pump, only quoted $34.97 for the air filter, and $15 for a rad cap tune.

By the way, ever since I picked up the car from it's servicing at Honda, the SRS light stays on constantly. In the book it says there may be a problem with my airbags or seatbelt tensioners and recommends i take it to the dealer asap! I don't want to take my car back there!

This young, first time car owner, mom of three on a budget would really appreciate some feedback!!!
Thanks!

[rrocket]

I recently took my 02' Honda Civic in for the major service that is required after 128,00 KMS. That was $305.74, theybasically replaced the engine oil, drain plug washer, engine oil filter, transmission oil, adjusted the brakes and tire pressures and inspected other parts.

Before I went to pick up my car, he quoted another $1700. He said that The water pump needed to be replaced ($675), the front lower compliance brushings torn ($295), rear wheel cylinders-as left rear starting to leak ($365), upper and lower air filter housings ($220), and flush out & bleed dirty brake fluid ($133). I was a little overwhelmed as I was not prepared to pay over $2000 this day. Well, I didn't..couldn't if I wanted to! Just paid for the major service that was due for $305 and walked out with the quote for the additional work in hand even though he really insisted I at least get the water pump fixed.

This is my first car, I'm female and young and part of me wondered if I was a target for a rip off, so I asked some friends about water pumps. They didn't think i would have a problem if I wasn't leaking or the car wasn't making any funny noises, which it was not.

 I happened to get a flat a few weeks later and took it to Kal Tire. They did an inspection on my car for free (the visual) and afterwards they had one of their mechanics look at the water pump. They couldn't find anything wrong with the water pump, only quoted $34.97 for the air filter, and $15 for a rad cap tune.

By the way, ever since I picked up the car from it's servicing at Honda, the SRS light stays on constantly. In the book it says there may be a problem with my airbags or seatbelt tensioners and recommends i take it to the dealer asap! I don't want to take my car back there!

This young, first time car owner, mom of three on a budget would really appreciate some feedback!!!
Thanks!

Sure it's possible.  However, you're better off finding a good independant shop to do the work.  It will cost you less IF any of these items actually need replacing.  There's no reason why you can't do them one at a time.  I'm curious as to how they determined the water pump needed replacing unless it was a "by the book" item that needs replacing at X number of kilometers or age of vehicle

[maritime_storm]

The water pump is probably due to mileage, memory serving me correctly(it rarely does) the water pump is driven by the timing belt, you're probably due to replace the timing belt due to mileage, if so replace the pump at the same time to save on labour expense(timing belt pumps have this nasty habit of leaking right after the timing belt is changed for reason). The air filter housing has me curious, why did they recommended replacing it? The wheel cylinder on the left should be replaced asap if it is in fact leaking, this is a safety issue that can leave you little to no brakes if left alone. Some shops/tech like to replace wheel cylinders and calipers in pairs, they rarely spring a leak or seize at the same time, myself I've not seen the need to replace them before they act up. Did the independant shop pull the rear wheels & drums and look at the rear brakes? I assume(which I shouldn't) that the suspension bushings they are referring to are in fact control arm bushings, the independant shop didn't mention them or wheel cylinders(which really concerns me). The bushings are rarely an issue on these cars until much later in life, without seeing them I couldn't verify that isn't issue. You may want to check with another shop if they in fact didn't check these things after you mentioned them.

[dr_spock]

I have an 02 Civic too.  Brake fluid should be replaced every 3 years regardless of mileage.   Honda recommends replacing the timing belt at 176000 km (or at 100000 km if vehicle is normally driven at under -29 deg C.)   Typically it is a good idea to replace the water pump at the same time. 

[toolatecrew]

Unfortunatley the SRS warning can often only be reset by the dealer even if it is false. I would suggest finding a good independent mechanic. Have them inspect front lower compliance brushings torn ($295), rear wheel cylinders-as left rear starting to leak ($365), . Those are saftey issues. If they need fixing you should get them fixed. An Indy mechanic can do it and likley less expensive.

At the same time have them check the water pump. If they find nothing wrong then I would look to have it replaced in another year or 2 (another 50,000km) when the timing belt is due. If the idny can diagnose the SRS warning but if he cannot (which he may not be able to) then take it to the dealer and tell them you want them to deal with that and only that.

Is the dealer ripping you off? Well service advisors get paid to sell as much as they can. There may some things that are debatable if they are needed or even needed YET. The problem is that they may be mixing togther things that are  needed (leaking brakees) together with things that are not (water pump). I agree its not very fair becuase no one wants to be unsafe. A good indy mechanic is much more likley to tell you what you NEED and what can wait.

I ahd a dealer swear up and down the only way to fix the broken headlight switch so the lights would pop up on my used RX7. They wanted 100s of dollars. My indy mechanic put a toggle switch in that made them go up for less than $50 IIRC.

[overtakeyouintheleftlane]

sw3611 - "I'm female and young and part of me wondered if I was a target for a rip off"

Perfect target for a rip-off. Find a good independent mechanic and build a customer relationship with them. They'll tell you what needs to be replaced ASAP, what should be done and can wait and what doesn't need to be done yet.

Dealership = Stealership (Service advisors also get paid commission on top of their salary, so they have EVERY REASON TO LIE while an independent mechanic usually won't lie as they don't want to lose you as a customer and you are worth more as a loyal customer).

[gta_driver]

The Honda/Acura dealership near where I live insisted that I needed to get my timing belt and water pump changed at 98K kms, which is contrary to what's written in the manual. The dealership that I bought the EL from agreed with what's written in the manual. Me thinks business is slow at the local Honda/Acura dealer and their out to "fleece" customers.

[Trainman]

I would recommend that you take your car to a reputable independent mechanic (the Indy they keep talking about above, not the race  ) with the list from the dealer in hand and get them to go over it.  It will cost a little bit as they will have to take off a wheel and such but you will have a much better idea of what is really needed and what can wait.

Who has been doing the oil changes on your Civic so far?  They might be a good option to do the look-over if its not a Minute Lube type place.  Or ask your friends for recommendations for a good mechanic in your area.

You do not want to mess with the safety side of the car but some of what the dealer wanted to do is not safety related.

And thanks for asking our opinions on this, I hope we can be helpful.  Feel free to come back with updates and more questions.

[gta_driver]

By the way, ever since I picked up the car from it's servicing at Honda, the SRS light stays on constantly. In the book it says there may be a problem with my airbags or seatbelt tensioners and recommends i take it to the dealer asap! I don't want to take my car back there!

My EL is basically the same car as your Civic. My SRS light stays on every once in a while for extended periods too. I found out what the problem is to get it to turn off.

(1.)Sometimes the passenger seat belt hangs against the SRS sensor on the side of the passenger seat sensor triggering the light. Move belt out of the way or roll seat forward or backward.
(2.)I had one passenger take an extended snooze in the car, the passenger weight was shifted to the sensor side of the passenger seat( head was leaning towards window). I gave the seat a couple of whacks on the passenger bolster, light turned off.
(3.)There is a side mesh pocket along the interior of the b piller on both the driver and passenger side. If there is a map or something in it and the seat is lined up with the map(or whatever) it will trigger the SRS light. Try moving the location of the seat forward and back. It will turn off the SRS light.

[Cord]

Dealership = Stealership (Service advisors also get paid commission on top of their salary, so they have EVERY REASON TO LIE while an independent mechanic usually won't lie as they don't want to lose you as a customer and you are worth more as a loyal customer).

So a dealership does want to lose you as a customer and doesn't value loyal customers?

How do you think independent mechanics make money, by providing free advice and repairs so that you'll remain ever loyal? In fact I would submit that a large franchised dealer has a lot more to lose than a small service shop by developing a bad reputation.

The only reason to go to independent mechanics is if you have an older, out of warranty car. They usually have cheaper labour charges than dealers. They also sometimes use very questionable quality parts. And they certainly provide no guarantee of truthfulness. People get sold unnecessary repairs at independents all the time.

Re: the OP's original question, of course it's possible the Honda service advisor could lie. Anybody selling anything could lie. But it's not just because he works at a dealership.

[Juke1]

Holy shite and they're suppose to be great cars...timing belt and water pump at the same time!!...something to consider before sinking money into one.  I once heard from a mechanic, you could put a Honda logo on a wheel barrow and sell a million, key word "overated"

[Juke1]

Dealership = Stealership (Service advisors also get paid commission on top of their salary, so they have EVERY REASON TO LIE while an independent mechanic usually won't lie as they don't want to lose you as a customer and you are worth more as a loyal customer).

So a dealership does want to lose you as a customer and doesn't value loyal customers?

How do you think independent mechanics make money, by providing free advice and repairs so that you'll remain ever loyal? In fact I would submit that a large franchised dealer has a lot more to lose than a small service shop by developing a bad reputation.

The only reason to go to independent mechanics is if you have an older, out of warranty car. They usually have cheaper labour charges than dealers. They also sometimes use very questionable quality parts. And they certainly provide no guarantee of truthfulness. People get sold unnecessary repairs at independents all the time.

Re: the OP's original question, of course it's possible the Honda service advisor could lie. Anybody selling anything could lie. But it's not just because he works at a dealership.

Oh yes, and that monthly quota for bonus can do amazing things for sales.

[TopGun]

When I had my Miata, most of the enthusiast literature suggested to do the waterpump at the same time...the dealer didn't want to do it, and in fact, made me sign something that said it was "Against their recommendation".

As for Indy mechanics, I've actually gone back to Burlington Mazda.  An indy shop insisted my back brakes be done, but the Burlington Mazda guys said "no"...and showed me there was lots of life left in them.

In fact, I just had an EGR valve fail on the Protege5...and they replaced it under warranty...the car has 272,000 km on it!  When I questioned "why"...the guy just smiled and acted like he didn't hear the question.

[toolatecrew]

Dealership = Stealership (Service advisors also get paid commission on top of their salary, so they have EVERY REASON TO LIE while an independent mechanic usually won't lie as they don't want to lose you as a customer and you are worth more as a loyal customer).

So a dealership does want to lose you as a customer and doesn't value loyal customers?

How do you think independent mechanics make money, by providing free advice and repairs so that you'll remain ever loyal? In fact I would submit that a large franchised dealer has a lot more to lose than a small service shop by developing a bad reputation.

The only reason to go to independent mechanics is if you have an older, out of warranty car. They usually have cheaper labour charges than dealers. They also sometimes use very questionable quality parts. And they certainly provide no guarantee of truthfulness. People get sold unnecessary repairs at independents all the time.

Re: the OP's original question, of course it's possible the Honda service advisor could lie. Anybody selling anything could lie. But it's not just because he works at a dealership.

QUestion:Do service advisors get a bonus for customer retention or do they only get a bonus based on their monthy sales?

How do they track customer retentin for service for bonuses?

Point is while the Dealership might care that they retain service customers there is no real incentive for Service Advisors to do so. If he's honest and does not reccomend any extra services maybe the customer comes back in a year for the timing belt change, maybe they don't or maybe they come back and deal with a different service advisor. Customer loyalty beinifts the DEALER not the advisors.

Advisors who don't sell enough don't stick around long. An INdy mechacinc however is bother the advisor and the dealer. He directly benifits from loyalty.

People do what you give themk incentive to do. The dealer has bulit in business especially in smaller areas. They are going to have a high volume of customers who come for service no matter what. They will milk all the dollars they can from those customers becuase frankly they have high retneion rate no matter what. People come for warranty work or service becuase they think they have no choice. A dealer can get away with poor treatment and many people will just put up with it bcuase they can't go to another dealer or they are misinformed and think they MUST go to the dealer.

An Indy mechanic can certainly lie. But if they get caught the chances of rention are much lower and they do NOT have the same built in clientl to depend on as a dealer.

To imply that a Service advisor on commisson doesn't have more incentive to go for the quick buck regardless of consequens is unrealistic. People do what they are motivated to do.

[Cord]

QUestion:Do service advisors get a bonus for customer retention or do they only get a bonus based on their monthy sales?

At the store I work at, they get paid on sales and also on individual CSI scores. If they don't have enough happy customers they make a lot less money.

Customer loyalty beinifts the DEALER not the advisors.

Of course, that assumes that dealership upper management is too rock stupid to put processes in place to encourage loyalty. I'm sure some are, but it certainly can't be said of all dealerships, just because they are dealerships. I doubt that you'll find many dealership service departments who just sit there and rake in the cash because their customers are zombies who don't realize they can shop elsewhere.

For anyone that believes that dealership service depts have a monopoly on selling unnecessary repairs, I suggest spending some time at an independent transmission or oil change shop. Your eyes will water they'll be opened so wide.

A great relationship with a service centre, whether it's a dealership or an independent shop is the key, not just whether it is one or the other.

[PJungnitsch]

For anyone that believes that dealership service depts have a monopoly on selling unnecessary repairs, I suggest spending some time at an independent transmission or oil change shop. Your eyes will water they'll be opened so wide.

Agree, independents can be bad as well. You really have to ask around. Lethbridge had a readers choice edition of small businesses put out every year, and I found that extremely helpful, never had a bad experience with the 'top choices'.

Seems like every time I move to a new town and just picked a place out of the phone book I got burned.

[Trainman]

Holy shite and they're suppose to be great cars...timing belt and water pump at the same time!!...something to consider before sinking money into one.  I once heard from a mechanic, you could put a Honda logo on a wheel barrow and sell a million, key word "overated"

Actually, water pump and timing belt at the same time is highly recommended (but not required) for almost all engines that use TBelts (vs chains or push rods), including in my experience: Mercury (Mazda clone), Nissan, Toyota and Subaru.

Since you are already into the front of the motor to do the TBelt, the extra cost of the pump is just the part and a few minutes labour for the 3-4 bolts.  I believe it is a prudent preventative maintenance item.  Or take your chances and pay again to pull the front end apart when the WP fails.  Your choice   

[toolatecrew]

Holy shite and they're suppose to be great cars...timing belt and water pump at the same time!!...something to consider before sinking money into one.  I once heard from a mechanic, you could put a Honda logo on a wheel barrow and sell a million, key word "overated"

Actually, water pump and timing belt at the same time is highly recommended (but not required) for almost all engines that use TBelts (vs chains or push rods), including in my experience: Mercury (Mazda clone), Nissan, Toyota and Subaru.

Since you are already into the front of the motor to do the TBelt, the extra cost of the pump is just the part and a few minutes labour for the 3-4 bolts.  I believe it is a prudent preventative maintenance item.  Or take your chances and pay again to pull the front end apart when the WP fails.  Your choice  

Good point. However in this case another garage (who would similarly profit from the water pump replacement) said the water pump did not need replacment at this time. If the dealer at 170K said you need a timing belt replacment it will save you miney to do the water pump too great. Sounds like if there is nothing wromg with the water pump they want to get the full time for the pump and then get the full time again in 50K when the belt needs to be replaced.

[overtakeyouintheleftlane]

Cord - "So a dealership does want to lose you as a customer and doesn't value loyal customers?"

I never said anything like that or meant that. They just rip customers off (too high of a labour charge, $110 per hour at a GM dealer last I checked compared to my mechanic who charges $75 and selling over-priced and/or repairs which are not needed.

"How do you think independent mechanics make money, by providing free advice and repairs so that you'll remain ever loyal? In fact I would submit that a large franchised dealer has a lot more to lose than a small service shop by developing a bad reputation."

True, a dealership has more to lose since they carry that kind of inventory and property, however, a mechanic can lose customers as well by word of mouth (word of mouth usually brings in customers to independent shops). Exactly how my mechanic keep people coming back, he's always busy right at 8am. Also gives advice on your car needs and throwing me a few bones once in a while (no charge repair, no labour, etc.).

"The only reason to go to independent mechanics is if you have an older, out of warranty car"

Not true. I've taken my car to my mechanic after 1 year into my warranty and only brought my car back to a GM dealership for any warranty work. Just wanted an honest mechanic. I trust this person and he provides excellent service.

"They usually have cheaper labour charges than dealers."  - True.


"They also sometimes use very questionable quality parts." - Not true for every mechanic, dealerships also screw people around/use an inferior part for "warranty work" or a "repair".

"And they certainly provide no guarantee of truthfulness" - Neither do dealerships

"People get sold unnecessary repairs at independents all the time"

- Same with going to a dealership, people are sold unnecessary repairs ALL THE TIME as well.

[johngenx]

There are good dealer and bad dealers, and there are good indies and bad indies.  It's just the way it is.  It is my experience that Honda products do carry very high service costs, with frequent "inspection services" that run quite a few hours of labour and any fluids/filters are on top of an already high bill.  Subaru does the same thing.  

Honda and Subaru OE parts are also VERY expensive.  People run down German cars, but our Mercedes cars were always less to maintain and repair than the Honda or Subaru vehicles we've owned, with most parts prices (electronics being the exception) being dramatically lower.  I always buy jobber parts for our Subaru when possible, and have NOT noticed them being of a lesser quality, just being typically 25% of the cost.  (Our Subaru dealer does 2x or 3x most of the MSRP's for parts, so that is one problem)

My trick to keeping the long term costs down is not to buy those services.  I bring the car in and make a list of things like "change coolant, change diff fluid, change trans fluid and filter" and so on.  No inspection labour, thanks anyway.

If the engine coolant pump is driven by the timing belt, it can be a good long term saving to change it when doing the belt.  Our Subaru is VERY labour intensive to get into the front of the engine, so I wouldn't dream of doing the belts without also doing the water pump, tensioner, idler and front main seal.

In the case of the OP, I would seek some other opinions of the work required, just because you're not in the position to know if those items are truly in need of work.  I'm an ex-DIY and know pretty much everything that needs attention, and if the mechanic says something is amiss that I didn't know about, I get them to show me.  If they can't, then I know they were trying to take me for a ride, and I won't return there.

As for treatment of women, I still see this garbage, even by women service advisers.  If my wife drops off and picks up the car, she always has to call me because there is some giant estimate of repairs attached to the bill.  So I have to go down and get them to show me, and on 90% of the items, it's just not required.  They always seem to tell her the car needs new brakes, and when I ask to have a look they always back peddle with some BS about "they're fine now, but we meant you'd better keep an eye on them."

I just did brakes on all four corners of the Forester (for about $300 in parts, as opposed to the $1500 the dealer wanted for parts/labour), but didn't do the oil change myself.  I had a service special coupon for a $79.95 synthetic change at the dealer, so as that's not much more than it costs to DIY, I took it in.

Do you think my brand new brakes were shot?  Of course.  They also charged me $126 for an "A" service, being just inspections.  Christ, I SAID AN OIL AND FILTER and gave you the coupon.

That was the straw that broke the camel's back with the Subaru dealer.  I won't return there, and it's really turned me off buying a new one when the Forester finally gives up.