Topic: $10,000.00 EV rebate in Ontario.

[EV Dan]

It begins here:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2009/07/15/ontario-announces-electric-vehicle-incentives.htm

...and the first industry reactions... One would think with all that self-praised Toyota green image they would be happy to lead the way, but apparently they dont believe in pollution free driving that many are hoping for in Ontario, using off-peak and hydro electricity. Well, boo-hoo!

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/17/toyota-chafes-at-ontario-10-000-ev-rebate-calls-it-gm-subsidy/

Stephen Beatty, managing director of Toyota Canada is not to thrilled with plug-in rebate plan announced by Ontario premier Dalton McGuinty this week. In fact, Beatty sees the plan as more of a subsidy for General Motors and the Chevy Volt than a real plan for promoting plug-in vehicles. While McGuinty made the announcement at a Toronto Chevrolet dealer where a Volt concept was on hand. Toyota – and presumably other automakers – was not consulted or even notified about the plan before the announcement.

While the plan will provide financial incentives for buying ER-EVs, EVs and PHEVs, non-plug hybrids will be left out in the cold. Given Toyota's oft-stated skepticism about plug-in vehicles, it's no wonder they are upset. Given the Ontario government's investment in GM, it's not unexpected for them to do things that might promote the direction GM is going. The government's policy may well be too specific and should perhaps provide some incentives for other types of cleaner, more efficient vehicles like hybrids and diesels.

[initial_D]

I will go for the EV if they throw in a free 36 months leasing program as well. 

Life is too short to driving on the boring lane.

[Leviathan]

I suppose other provinces will follow suit. According to this Chevy Volt Will be Launched in Canada in July 2011 article the Volt won't be in Canada until July/August 2011

However, without giving much detail it was just disclosed by Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz that the the Volt would be “rolled out 9 months later in Canada.”  This puts it into August 2011.

 so the incentive wouldn't help Volt sales initially. Hmmm, August 2011? That puts it ~4 months after the Tribute is paid for....

[G0dspd]

This is probably the Canadian version of the 7000$ tax credit GM publicized in the US a few months ago.

While the plan will provide financial incentives for buying ER-EVs, EVs and PHEVs, non-plug hybrids will be left out in the cold. Given Toyota's oft-stated skepticism about plug-in vehicles, it's no wonder they are upset.

Aren't they working on a plug-in Prius?

The government's policy may well be too specific and should perhaps provide some incentives for other types of cleaner, more efficient vehicles like hybrids and diesels.

Are these plug-in hybrids actually greener than a small fuel efficient vehicle or even some diesels?  The hybrids we have on the market are somewhat capable but it's conditional on the drivers habits and other factors.  I'm still waiting to see what's gonna happen to all those batteries in a few years.

[Mitlov]

I don't recall Toyota crying foul when the US government gave hefty tax credits to purchasers of the Prius back before the Prius was a firmly-established icon.

[tpl]

Yet another deeply stupid idea for our politicians.  You want people to buy very economical cars.... put the price of gasoline up ( not diesel as that immediately affects trucks and buses) and or tax cars by engine size or vehicle weight.

[Mitlov]

Yet another deeply stupid idea for our politicians.  You want people to buy very economical cars.... put the price of gasoline up ( not diesel as that immediately affects trucks and buses) and or tax cars by engine size or vehicle weight.

It's not about just pushing people into the most economical cars in the short run.  It's about offsetting the high R&D costs for new-technology cars so that those programs can get off the ground.  When hybrids were brand new, they had a much larger price premium over equivalent traditionally-powered cars than they do now.  Once the initial R&D was paid off, and economies of scale brought down the price of hybrid components, hybrids are starting to become a viable economic option for those who want to save money in addition to lowering carbon emissions.  Without some market tampering, they might never have become popular enough for economies of scale and the like to drive down their price.

The same is true of EVs.  At first, the Volt is going to be prohibitively expensive (I've heard US$45,000 as a possible starting price).  That price will plummet in 5-10 years, if and only if Volt sales take off during those first five years.  Once initial R&D has been paid off and economies of scale have kicked in, and companies can sell EVs for a profit at middle-class prices, the rebate should (and almost certainly will) go away.

[rrocket]

So isn't giving more tax-payer rebates to car manufacturers (especially announcing the credit while referencing the GM car, which our gov't partly owns a stake in) just a continuation of corporate welfare?  Now may tax dollars are not only going to financing GM, but now it's going towards actually financing the purchase price of cars??

For those who want the Volt, the $10,000 is nice.  But at the suggested retail price of "approximately $40,000 USD"...let's say $45,000 CDN...even with the rebate it still puts it substantially more money than the Honda and Toyota hybrids on the market, both of which can be had for around the mid $20's.  And let's not forget the Jetta too..although NOT a hybrid.  And the Ford Fusion Hybrid a bit more than the imports, but still well cheaper than the Volt  So it's looking like it's going to be at least $5,000 and as much as $10,000 more than the hybrids.  I dunno, people.  I think part of the appeal of owning the Volt (apart from being green) is saving money.  Hell, a Volt would be really cool for ME to drive to work, hopefully under electric power the whole way.  But the fact of the matter is, the cost of admission is just too much.  And I think alot of the people might be turned away.  $25,000 or so for a hybrid is affordable for many folks.  $35,000 for a Volt? Alot less so.

[tpl]

Quoting $45K Cdn as a possible price... + 13% + a/c tax etc etc.   Over $50k which is a psychological barrier for some people.

Trouble with the Volt is that after that 40Km of all electric you end up with an underpowered car with a small gas engine revving its heart out to keep the electric motor going and STILL have to plug it in when you get home.   The Prius seems like a better real world solution and cheaper as well.

[Leviathan]

Trouble with the Volt is that after that 40Km of all electric you end up with an underpowered car with a small gas engine revving its heart out to keep the electric motor going and STILL have to plug it in when you get home. 

~60Kms range. You do not need 100% power 100% of the time for any car and the genset will provide enough power for "average" needs (it also runs at different RPM depending on need) while dipping further into the battery as required or charging the battery if "average" is too much. Yes, you need to plug it in at home - that is the whole idea The upside is that you rarely visit a gas station.

[Honda Owner]

put the price of gasoline up ( not diesel as that immediately affects trucks and buses) and or tax cars by engine size or vehicle weight.

Of course this is the solution but look what happens when politician tries to do it. Dion went down in flames with the "Green Shift" and the lefties (ironically) went berserk here in British Columbia with our three cent a litre Carbon Tax. Some went as far as to state their gasoline bills had doubled, than when gas went from like $1.47 to $1.02 year on year. In most countries, there is an annual tax, either by displacement, weight, both or CO2 output. I am all in favour of it.

Even with a $10k rebate the Volt will be a hard sell. It is hard to sell anything in Canada over $30k. Look at what is on the roads here. For me $10k is like ten years' gasoline.

[Leviathan]

For those who want the Volt, the $10,000 is nice.  But at the suggested retail price of "approximately $40,000 USD"...let's say $45,000 CDN...even with the rebate it still puts it substantially more money than the Honda and Toyota hybrids on the market, both of which can be had for around the mid $20's.  And let's not forget the Jetta too..although NOT a hybrid.  And the Ford Fusion Hybrid a bit more than the imports, but still well cheaper than the Volt  So it's looking like it's going to be at least $5,000 and as much as $10,000 more than the hybrids.  I dunno, people.  I think part of the appeal of owning the Volt (apart from being green) is saving money.  Hell, a Volt would be really cool for ME to drive to work, hopefully under electric power the whole way.  But the fact of the matter is, the cost of admission is just too much.  And I think alot of the people might be turned away.  $25,000 or so for a hybrid is affordable for many folks.  $35,000 for a Volt? Alot less so.

Well, yes, the first generation of Volts are not going to be cheap but you don't get 2nd & 3rd generation price economies without having suffered through the first generation price of admission.

$35,000 (rebated) price gets you a car that does 0-100Km/h in ~8.5 seconds, has 150hp &  273lb-ft of torque @ 0 rpm and will drive DEAD SILENT when genset is off and pretty darn quiet when on. It will also be pretty well equipped. Apparently it will get ~50MPusG while the genset is running.

Is it affordable? Well, each driver needs to do the math re: his/her typical driving pattern using electricity vs gas. If your daily drive is <60Kms then you could conceivably not use any gas at all.

2010 Prius looks like it starts at $26,500 MSRP, $29,610 for Premium, $31,345 for Touring, and $36,565 for Technology Package. I'm not sure which of these models is comparable to the Volt but I'll bet it isn't the $26,500 one    Edmunds.com lists the Prius 0-100Km/h at 10.1 seconds & 45.7 (52.2 on 115-mile fuel economy loop) MPusG.

[tpl]

Trouble with the Volt is that after that 40Km of all electric you end up with an underpowered car with a small gas engine revving its heart out to keep the electric motor going and STILL have to plug it in when you get home. 

~60Kms range. You do not need 100% power 100% of the time for any car and the genset will provide enough power for "average" needs (it also runs at different RPM depending on need) while dipping further into the battery as required or charging the battery if "average" is too much. Yes, you need to plug it in at home - that is the whole idea The upside is that you rarely visit a gas station.

Of course you don't need full power all the time. The gas engine has 3 different rev ranges to supply power.   The gas engine doesn't charge the battery except as a by product of you having got the battery down to 30%, started to run on gas engine-> battery-> traction motor and happening to then need less power from the traction motor than a given setting of the gas engine produces. I am sure that works fine... its just software and I am also sure that if you are using a lot of ancillary power, lights, ac etc that it all works.  It suggests that you will always arrive at your destination ( >60km) with a battery down at 30% charge.  If your destination has the capability to plug the vehicle in that's ok ( leaving out discussions about whether there is enough capacity at that particular charging point to regain a full charge in the available time)  If you cannot plug in at Aunt Jemima's place then you end up coming all the way home with the gas engine running.

I agree that for people with home charging capability, a short commute and possibly the capability of a plug in at work the Volt will work fine as an electric car.    As an ex-Torontonian I also think of all those apartment buildings where the landlord will probably not volunteer to provide charging capability and all the small streets in "old" Toronto with only street parking and therefore no home charging.

Anyway.  Whether it is a good idea or not I just don't think the frigging provincial government should subsidize in UNTIL GM has shown that it can make a profit selling them... and their other vehicles to start buying their shares back from the US and Canadian governments.

[dougjp]

Hey! That's my money McSquinty is throwing away.....again! What a bozo.

[Mitlov]

So isn't giving more tax-payer rebates to car manufacturers (especially announcing the credit while referencing the GM car, which our gov't partly owns a stake in) just a continuation of corporate welfare?  Now may tax dollars are not only going to financing GM, but now it's going towards actually financing the purchase price of cars??

For those who want the Volt, the $10,000 is nice.  But at the suggested retail price of "approximately $40,000 USD"...let's say $45,000 CDN...even with the rebate it still puts it substantially more money than the Honda and Toyota hybrids on the market, both of which can be had for around the mid $20's.  And let's not forget the Jetta too..although NOT a hybrid.  And the Ford Fusion Hybrid a bit more than the imports, but still well cheaper than the Volt  So it's looking like it's going to be at least $5,000 and as much as $10,000 more than the hybrids.  I dunno, people.  I think part of the appeal of owning the Volt (apart from being green) is saving money.  Hell, a Volt would be really cool for ME to drive to work, hopefully under electric power the whole way.  But the fact of the matter is, the cost of admission is just too much.  And I think alot of the people might be turned away.  $25,000 or so for a hybrid is affordable for many folks.  $35,000 for a Volt? Alot less so.

I didn't have a problem when they did it with early hybrids, and I don't now.  This is about helping new technology get off the ground and pick up enough steam to become viable in the long-term--NOT "corporate welfare" in my opinion.

Here's my question...will this rebate apply to BYD electric cars (made by a Chinese company who is thinking about putting a facility in Portland, Oregon), or is it limited to the Volt? 

[G0dspd]

Two or three years ago, Honda introduced the Honda Civic Hybrid and their biggest selling point was the fact that it was the first hybrid under 25 000$. (IIRC  )  Are potential customers really gonna walk away from an hybrid just because it's over 30 000$?

IMO GM has to market it as the next evolution of hybrids or something "better" than the current hybrids on the market.  All the rich wannabee hippies are going to run to the nearest Chevrolet dealership to get their new snob machine.   

[EV Dan]

Like him or not, McGuinty "rules" because he is actually doing something for a change, unlike the feds. It is a bold move which doesn't seem a corp. welfare to me. He is doing it for people who elected him. Ontarians will benefit from the gradual switch to electrics. Not only they are clean, but the new technology will create demand for workforce and as a result, having "donated" 10k for a limited time, the gov-t will collect much more in taxes.
It is not done to promote Volt alone. There are many other upcoming EVs, some scheduled to appear even sooner. There is a chance that Nissan will bring a full 5 seater EV first, maybe followed by I-Miev and most noticeably, local Magna who have developed an electric platform from the ground up, with no fuss, fanfares or bailouts. Ford Focus EV will be the first one using it. It will be available as "barebones" to other car makers, while production will be done by Magna from what I understand.
You see, it may happen so that in 10 years nobody will want to buy a gas car due to the cost of gas or CO2 taxation. Any car maker who insists on sticking to tried and true will go down, while Provinces and Countries who took timely steps to establish EV markets will stay on top of the game.
Is Toyota being lobbied by the big oil? Why else can they not include a cord with every prius sold? Its been done long before with Rav4 EV, and it didn't even have a gas tank 

[dougjp]

Sorry Dan. I most always appreciate your posts but that last one just about made me gag. Its not your opinions, which I don't happen to agree with on this issue, but everybody has 'em. It was using the "bandwagon" technique to tell us what "everyone" wants and thinks and likes, even if they don't. I hesitated even responding as this thread could go off into one of those never ending "greenies vs. normal people" arguments. 

Diesel powered vehicles emit approximately half as much CO2 as electric cars when the use of fossil fuels to produce electricity is taken into account. And this McSquinty person who is supposedly the darling of all and "rules", do you recall his very recent pronouncements about nuclear plant development (as in NO), which is the only way he's going to replace the coal fired generators (refer previous sentence)? I think he's a certifiable nutcase myself, but everyone can make up their own mind. Perhaps we should have a vote now and see if he gets reelected or even close. He seems compelled to give away other people's money, now that he's "into the swing of things". If he has to be the way he is, and we can't get rid of him fast, then I wish he would give some $ to buyers of diesel powered cars instead. I have this desire for a 335d! 

All I want to know is what public Companies exist that are in the tow truck business. As no doubt my and everyone else's taxes are going to be spent on stuff like this instead of promoting a big expansion of diesel cars, I want in on shares of the next big growth industry - towing out-of-juice pure electric cars!   

[EV Dan]

"It was using the "bandwagon" technique to tell us what "everyone" wants and thinks and likes, even if they don't. I hesitated even responding as this thread could go off into one of those never ending "greenies vs. normal people" arguments."

No, I don't want to go there either or we'd have to define "normal" people first and that would take a few pages of ink waste 
Nowhere above did I suggest that everyone likes or should like McGuinty or EVs in which he apparently sees the way for Ontario future auto industry to grow. But if they are good for environment, economy, people's health, creating job places and securing our tomorrow on the world market scene, then why not invest some of the taxpayers' money into something many industry analysts expect to boom in the next decade or so?
In case of nuke plants I expect they did the math and decided to rely on more hydro and alternative means to produce electricity.

"Diesel powered vehicles emit approximately half as much CO2 as electric cars when the use of fossil fuels to produce electricity is taken into account."
I doubt it. Just compare efficiency of a coal plant less transmission losses to one of an ICE.

[Black Hatch]

So um how well do EV respond to Canada's cold climate?
How the mileage is affected would be my main concern.
Will they be able to run at -30 deg C typical of most Canadian winters?
Have they done an EV test in cold winters?