CD Article: 2010 Chevrolet Camaro RS V6

[ovr50]

Thanks, Artic, I figured something was going on.......

[vdk]

300hp RWD car for well under $30K?  That was the whole reason for the success of the original Camaro, and why I think this one will do well enough to make some money for GM.

But that was 1969 John. Fast forward 40 years and many don't care about 0-60 in 5 seconds and parking lot donuts. Personally, the Stang would be my pick out of the 3.

[Greg B.]

The example I posted about the 2010 Camaro for sale in the Ontario Trader that Greg had his tantrum over is not one of those free ads.  It's a paid multi pic ad with a crazy description. 

It's a scam, because it makes no sense. That car has been available for less than a month, and there is a waiting list on new orders through September. The list for the car is approaching $50K, and this guy is selling his for $23K? Not a chance. You go buy it, Stevie. Put it on a truck down here and flip it for a quick $15K profit.

[articsteve]

I told you that the ad was wacky.  The dude is trying to get ppl to call because he has realized that the crazy demand is not there.  The Challenger took all those buyers.

The point is that there are 3 dealers in the TO area trying to sell 2 V8s and 1 V6 and 3 private speculators.  And those are dealers willing to spend AD money on such a supposedly hot car.

Saugeen Motors in Durham, Ontario, 70 miles north of Mississauga/Brampton, has had a purple V6 RS Lt2 sitting there for 3 weeks for $37,775. 

VIN:    2G1FCXXXXXXXXX814 
Stock Number:  85673 

http://www.saugeenmotors.gm.ca/weblogic/gwn/dws/InternetNewVeh.Search?dealer=85673&lang=en

That car captioned above looks fantastic, may drive and be fantastic, and I do like it very much, but in this current environment, to sell as suburban families second car toy, it must be priced at 30K, not 37K and be available in a rag top.  Something the Mustang has excelled in.

I say again    This car needs flush American consumers to survive because it's too pricey for the CDN market to sell in volume.

[Mitlov]

That car captioned above looks fantastic, may drive and be fantastic, and I do like it very much, but in this current environment, to sell as suburban families second car toy, it must be priced at 30K, not 37K

So do you want the Camaro to have 2/3s the power and a live rear axle?  The Camaro is more expensive than the Mustang for a reason.

In the States, the primary market for pony cars, I'm anticipating waiting lists and dealer markups for the Camaro.  Call it heavy, call it cheap-feeling and cramped inside, call it overstyled, but just don't call this 300 hp RWD car overpriced. 

It's a raging deal for what it delivers.  The only problem is that you're expecting less than what it delivers, so you're expecting the price tag of a less capable car.

[articsteve]

In the States, the primary market for pony cars, I'm anticipating waiting lists and dealer markups for the Camaro.

I repeat, that is where the sales will either make or break this car.

Call it heavy, call it cheap-feeling and cramped inside, call it overstyled, but just don't call this 300 hp RWD car overpriced. 

It's over priced for the Canadian market which you have, understandably so, zero comprehension.

[Mitlov]

Call it heavy, call it cheap-feeling and cramped inside, call it overstyled, but just don't call this 300 hp RWD car overpriced. 

It's over priced for the Canadian market which you have, understandably so, zero comprehension.

Then apparently Jaeger has "zero comprehension" of the Canadian market too (see post #12), and he's not even a defender of the Camaro overall 

[drederick]

They aren't on the lots at all.

Look at where you live. 

 Now STFU for once!!!

I'm in the centre of the universe 100 miles from the plant.    There is no rush on the V6 RS models @ $37,500 plus tax which seemed to be shipped out in mass.  Me thinks the base units have yet to be shipped.  ERROR, but hardly a surprise.

Your in the centre of misinformation is where you are. If you actually checked out what is happening with 2010 Camaro production you would realize the following:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=144226

OSHAWA, Ontario — Chevrolet kicked off regular production of its highly anticipated 2010 Camaro on Monday here. The automaker told Inside Line that enthusiasts have already ordered 14,000 2010 Camaros, most of which were the top-of-the-line SS V8 model.

"Despite the economic situation, we have 14,000 sold orders, which speaks for itself," Chevrolet spokesman Terry Rhadigan told Inside Line. "It's pretty encouraging. As we expected, of the 14,000 Camaros sold, the majority are the SS V8. Those are the enthusiasts who have been anticipating this car. Those are our loyalists. There are lots of manual-transmission models in there. After that pent-up demand for the SS model, we anticipate that it will settle down to a 65/35 split. About 65 percent of the Camaros we sell will be the V6 model."

So.......

'There is no rush on the V6 RS models @ $37,500 plus tax which seemed to be shipped out in mass.'

Just how many have been shipped out? You must know, right?

'Me thinks the base units have yet to be shipped.' ha ha ah ah hha ha ha genius

I guess you are the one with the ERROR, and again it is hardly a suprise.

[PJungnitsch]

So do you want the Camaro to have 2/3s the power and a live rear axle?  The Camaro is more expensive than the Mustang for a reason.

Just read something interesting on that:

At the launch of the S197 Mustang in late 2004, Ford countered criticism of the live rear axle -- a setup last considered state of the art by the rest of the world's automakers back in the 1970s -- by claiming an independent rear end would have added thousands of dollars to the cost of the car. That would have been correct had the S197 Mustang shared elements of the heavy and expensive DEW98 platform, which underpinned the Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, and Jaguar S-Type. But it's not quite the whole story.

The S197 was in fact originally planned to share a lighter, simpler, less expensive independent rear suspension with the Australian-designed BA-series Falcon sedan, which launched in 2002. In fact, the rear half of the S197 platform was to be common between the two cars, with the Falcon eventually picking up the Mustang's front structure when Ford Australia could afford to replace the Falcon's ancient 4.0-liter straight six with the 3.5-liter Duratec V-6.

The programs diverged because of the Falcon's need for three passenger rear seating, and the Mustang team's insistence on a subframe-mounted rear suspension, which improved isolation but compromised the rear passenger package. With the Falcon due to hit the market two years ahead of the Mustang, the Ford Australia engineers cut to the chase and developed their own independent rear end without a subframe. The Mustang team eventually gave up on a subframe, mainly for cost reasons, and developed a similar, light and low cost independent rear end of their own.

Late in the S197 program, however, product development executive Phil Martens reportedly managed to convince Bill Ford Jr. he could save Ford $100 a car if the Mustang was switched to a live rear axle. The S197 platform was hurriedly torn up and reworked to accommodate the old-tech suspension. Martens was named Ford's group vice-president, product creation, North America, in October, 2003.

Mustang chief engineer Hau Thai-Tang did a great job with the hand he'd been dealt, and the detail tweaks to the chassis for the 2010 model give the Mustang remarkable poise... for a live rear axle car. And there's the rub: Good as it is, the 2010 Mustang could have been better.

There are a lot of good reasons why the rest of the world's automakers stopped using the Mustang's rear suspension layout decades ago. No matter how well set up, a live rear axle will never deliver the refinement, ride quality, and all-round traction of a well set up independent rear end. Yeah, yeah, I know drag racers like live rear axles, but let's be honest, how many S197s actually spend their weekends pounding quarter miles? I'd be astonished if it's more than a tiny fraction of the total number of Mustangs sold.

Now here's the punchline: My well-placed sources say that once the noise, vibration and harshness, and driveline angle issues were solved, the S197's live rear axle actually ended up costing Ford $98 per unit MORE than the low cost independent rear end originally developed for the car.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6523204/auto-review/2010-ford-mustang-near-enough-is-not-good-enough/index.html

[Jaeger]

Call it heavy, call it cheap-feeling and cramped inside, call it overstyled, but just don't call this 300 hp RWD car overpriced. 

It's over priced for the Canadian market which you have, understandably so, zero comprehension.

Then apparently Jaeger has "zero comprehension" of the Canadian market too (see post #12), and he's not even a defender of the Camaro overall 

I guess I missed the announcement where Steve was appointed official spokesperson for the Canadian market.    This car has it faults.  Price isn't one of them.

Jaeger

[The Mighty Duck]

I guess I missed the announcement where Steve was appointed official spokesperson for the Canadian market.    This car has it faults.  Price isn't one of them.

Jaeger

Indeed.  Half of Steve's points mention the current economic climate.  I can see an argument that the car is overpriced for the current climate, but the current climate is far from typical.  Poor argument to claim the price does not reflect the current market price when the current market is anomalous.

[rrocket]

Call it heavy, call it cheap-feeling and cramped inside, call it overstyled, but just don't call this 300 hp RWD car overpriced. 

It's over priced for the Canadian market which you have, understandably so, zero comprehension.

Then apparently Jaeger has "zero comprehension" of the Canadian market too (see post #12), and he's not even a defender of the Camaro overall 

I guess I missed the announcement where Steve was appointed official spokesperson for the Canadian market.    This car has it faults.  Price isn't one of them.

Jaeger

I dunno though.  $37K for a V6 with a crap-tastic interior is a fault in price IMO.  That's Mustang GT V8 territory...and you get a MUCH better interior.  Or spring $2K more and get a 370Z...better in every way.  And as always (ducking for cover) the Genesis Coupe is lurking in that price range.

[Jaeger]

Call it heavy, call it cheap-feeling and cramped inside, call it overstyled, but just don't call this 300 hp RWD car overpriced. 

It's over priced for the Canadian market which you have, understandably so, zero comprehension.

Then apparently Jaeger has "zero comprehension" of the Canadian market too (see post #12), and he's not even a defender of the Camaro overall 

I guess I missed the announcement where Steve was appointed official spokesperson for the Canadian market.    This car has it faults.  Price isn't one of them.

Jaeger

I dunno though.  $37K for a V6 with a crap-tastic interior is a fault in price IMO.  That's Mustang GT V8 territory...and you get a MUCH better interior.  Or spring $2K more and get a 370Z...better in every way.  And as always (ducking for cover) the Genesis Coupe is lurking in that price range.

According to the article, it starts a good 10k below that point.  I know - you can option it a lot higher and the interior is still as crap-tastic - but it does offer some pretty indisputable bang for the buck for the entry level performance coupe buyer.  I would likely go with the Genesis Coupe or the Z as well - but not really based on the value argument. 

Jaeger

[Leviathan]

$37K? Bah, I built & priced a V6 model:

Option Total           $785
Destination          $1,400
Total                 $30,180

Not too bad and I don't mind the interior 

On a side note, check out the delivery allowances currently available.

[Mitlov]

I dunno though.  $37K for a V6 with a crap-tastic interior is a fault in price IMO.  That's Mustang GT V8 territory...and you get a MUCH better interior.  Or spring $2K more and get a 370Z...better in every way.  And as always (ducking for cover) the Genesis Coupe is lurking in that price range.

The interior-for-the-price thing has been done to death, so I won't touch that.

But why does it matter if it's a V6?  It has 300 horsepower.  That's dang close to 50% more than a V6 Mustang, that's equal to the 2009 Mustang GT, and that's not far off from quite a few other V8s on the market.  Nobody freaks out that 300 horsepower V6s from Hyundai (Genesis coupe), Lexus (IS350), Infiniti (G), Nissan (Z), Cadillac (CTS DI), Acura (TL SH-AWD), etc don't have eight cylinders.  They don't dismiss them as "just" a V6.  Why, then, is horsepower suddenly superseded by a simple cylinder count when we're talking about a 2010 Camaro?

And before you say "because it's a pony car, it HAS to have eight cylinders"...when you're cross-shopping a Camaro with a 370Z and a Genesis coupe, those 1960s rules no longer apply.  It becomes a "four-seat sport coupe," just like its import competitors.  (EDIT:  I realize the Z is a two-seater, of course...but you get my point).

[TopGun]

But why does it matter if it's a V6?  It has 300 horsepower.....Nobody freaks out that 300 horsepower V6s from Hyundai.....Why, then, is horsepower suddenly superseded by a simple cylinder count when we're talking about a 2010 Camaro?

A rhetorical question 'round these parts Mitlov.

We, as enthusiasts should be doing cartwheels that a maufacturer makes this great engine MT combo available without having to buy other stuff.

Heck...I even like the "heritage" steel wheels...all for $27Gs...$1,000 more than a Toyota Matrix XRS.

[The Mighty Duck]

Yeah - if you're after performance, the V6 Camaro is a smoking steal.  If you option it up, it's not quite as good a deal, but comparable to what the competition is offering.  Any way you cut it, $37k for 300hp is a deal.  And the exterior looks are to die for.

[vdk]

If 37k is a good deal for a RWD Coupe then how about 32k for a Genesis?

[Mitlov]

If 37k is a good deal for a RWD Coupe then how about 32k for a Genesis?

You're not comparing apples to apples.  You're comparing a "starting at" price for a Genesis to a "fully loaded" price for a Camaro V6.  Genesis Coupe 3.8 (300 horsepower) starts at $32,995.  Camaro LS (300 horsepower) starts at $26,995 (admittedly with steelies).  Camaro 2LT (the highest of the three V6 trim levels) is $31,595.

The as-tested car was a Camaro 2LT with, on top of everything the 2LT trim level gives you, $5,000 of additional options.  The car is absolutely loaded to the gills with options in order to hit $37,000.  But you can get the same basic chassis and drivetrain for $6,000 less than the starting price of of the Genesis Coupe V6.

[airbalancer]

"admittedly with steelies"
Are those for the winter tires