Topic: Interesting numbers

[sailor723]

http://www.financialpost.com/news-sectors/autos/story.html?id=1554281

I didn't realize that Honda and Toyota were now bigger Canadian manufacturers (in terms of unit production) than GM Canada

[toolatecrew]

These are not just interesting numbers they are support for what many have been saying for a long time.The drivers of automotive jobs in Canada ,the companies contributing to the economy of Canada are no longer GM and Chrysler US owned companies. They are Honda, Toyota and Ford. Its not about "domestic" car companies its about companies that contribute to the Canadian economy regardless of where they are headquaretered.

A few choice bits from the article linked above

GM faces its own possible bankruptcy filing and will get radically smaller, employing barely 5,500 people in Canada by 2014 -- fewer workers than property insurer ING Canada or manufacturer Siemens AG.

This is the most interesting paragraph in the whole article to me:

Honda built 58,000 vehicles in Canada in the first quarter this year while Toyota built 55,900 at its Ontario plants in Woodstock and Cambridge, according to Ward's Automotive Reports. Both automakers outpaced GM, which built only 41,600 units.

It's the same trend line on jobs. Honda employs 5,400 workers in Canada directly and Toyota employs 5,600. Both companies have added jobs over the years while their Detroit rivals are cutting workers in a bid to regain profitability.

Dennis DesRosiers, president of DesRosiers Automotive Consultants in Richmond Hill, Ont., has noted the perversity of Canadian governments plowing billions into GM and Chryler to help them shrink. "The groups killing jobs in Canada are rewarded and the group preserving and or creating jobs in Canada are punished. Someone has to explain the logic of this to me."

Toyota and Honda two non union employers now build more vehicles than CAW GM.

There are companies that have ADDED plants. Added jobs. Employed more people. Yet the Governement in all its wisdom is going to help the companies that have cut massive amounts of jobs. They are going to lend them money so they can CUT more jobs.

Anyone think these are dangerous times? At some point do the biggest employers in the Canadian Auto industry start to pressure the government to stop favouring their competion?

[johngenx]

US based firms are not Canadian.  We should have no loyalty towards The Big Three.  Canada has no domestic automakers, and the original AutoPact was about providing high value manufacturing jobs to Canadians.  We should understand that goal, and stick with it.

Honda and Toyota have replaced GM and Chrysler, and we should support the makers that support our jobs.

When we bought our Corolla, one factor that did sway me was the fact that it was built here.

[Patate]

1. This is hypocrisy.  Of course they'll build more vehicles than companies that are in the brink of bankruptcy.  If people didn't bother with Toyota or Honda there would be more car manufacturing from GM wouldn't it? Try interpreting the numbers.  We buy less Silverados, Equinoxes, and Impala/Allures, what do you think will happen with GM's manufacturing numbers?

2.Automakers don't only build cars, they build engines, they build components or simply buy them from foreigned or domestic suppliers.  Automakers also employ engineers to develop those cars, what about those?  Last time I heard, GM had a higher developpement team in Canada than any other manufacturer combined:
http://www.gm.ca/gm/english/corporate/offers/imforgm/overview?adv=84760

Of course that link is from GM Canada, but as far as I'm concerned, we don't have a link that proves otherwise.

We should compare the number of employees, and the amount of money spent in the community (suppliers), that'd be more interesting.

A Silverado requires more components and more work than a Civic.  Even though the CAW workers are the most productive auto workers IN THE WORLD, I highly doubt Honda takes more hours to build a Civic.

So there, here's my interpretation of those numbers.

And toolatecrew, I thought the place where the car was built wasn't important.  I guess you change opinions as you see fit, if it's to help your 7-billions-for-3months-money-losing Toyota

[Squishy]

A Silverado requires more components and more work than a Civic. 

Does it really?  The pickups get a refresh every decade or so, while the Civic and other small cars are refreshed closer to every three to six years.  I imagine it takes a smaller team to engineer a car in ten years than it does to engineer a car in three to six years.

Too bad I couldn't find anything giving R&D costs for either car per generation, much less over the life of the nameplate.

[Patate]

A Silverado requires more components and more work than a Civic. 

Does it really?  The pickups get a refresh every decade or so, while the Civic and other small cars are refreshed closer to every three to six years.  I imagine it takes a smaller team to engineer a car in ten years than it does to engineer a car in three to six years.

Too bad I couldn't find anything giving R&D costs for either car per generation, much less over the life of the nameplate.

Ford changed their F-series in 2004 and then in 2009.  Everytime they change generation, they use a new chassis etc... Don't tell me the 2009 Corolla took lots of work: it's the same platform, pretty much the same engine and tranny.. they only found places to cut corners and then they sold it as a brand new Corolla.  But yeah I agree, we can't really know how much R&D every car program took, we can only speculate.

[toolatecrew]

1. This is hypocrisy.  Of course they'll build more vehicles than companies that are in the brink of bankruptcy.  If people didn't bother with Toyota or Honda there would be more car manufacturing from GM wouldn't it? Try interpreting the numbers.  We buy less Silverados, Equinoxes, and Impala/Allures, what do you think will happen with GM's manufacturing numbers?

2.Automakers don't only build cars, they build engines, they build components or simply buy them from foreigned or domestic suppliers.  Automakers also employ engineers to develop those cars, what about those?  Last time I heard, GM had a higher development team in Canada than any other manufacturer combined:
http://www.gm.ca/gm/english/corporate/offers/imforgm/overview?adv=84760

Of course that link is from GM Canada, but as far as I'm concerned, we don't have a link that proves otherwise.

We should compare the number of employees, and the amount of money spent in the community (suppliers), that'd be more interesting.

A Silverado requires more components and more work than a Civic.  Even though the CAW workers are the most productive auto workers IN THE WORLD, I highly doubt Honda takes more hours to build a Civic.

So there, here's my interpretation of those numbers.

And toolatecrew, I thought the place where the car was built wasn't important.  I guess you change opinions as you see fit, if it's to help your 7-billions-for-3months-money-losing Toyota

You are attempting to misquote me. I don't appreciate it.

I said that where a car is built is not an important factor in people's BUYING decision.

Totally irrelevant to this thread.


Gm has a bigger development team in Canada? What does that mean? Since most companies (including Ford and Chrysler) have little to no development team in Canada what does it mean that GM has a bigger one. Does that mean they employ 50 people vs 5?

They should have the biggest team:

The company has been the single biggest beneficiary of the McGuinty government's auto-sector fund. Of the $500-million earmarked for the sector, GM received $235-million in 2005 for its $2.5-billion Beacon project. It also received $200-million in federal funding for that project, which includes plans to transform its two Oshawa car plants into one flexible manufacturing facility, invest in its Cami Automotive Inc. joint venture in Ingersoll and begin several research and development programs.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080514.GM14/TPStory/TPNational/Ontario/

How is this hypocarcy? Its FACT

GM, Chrysler are both making massive cuts. Their sales have dropped in a big way. They will produce many less cars. They are committed to close many plants in canada. They will produce fewer cars and employ fewer people in Canada going forward than Toyota or Honda. Its fact. End of discussion.

The Government of Canada needs to ensure that the companies that provide jobs to Canadians are supported.

Take the company names out of it.

Company X provides 8000 jobs in Canada. They plan to cut 4000 of those jobs and close 2 plants

Company y provides 8000 jobs in Canada . They plan to cut no jobs. They plan to close no plants.

If the government gives 1 B dollars to company X how would you feel as the CEO of company Y?
Which company contributes more to the economy of Canada in jobs taxes etc? There is no brand loyalty or fanboyism here. Company X or Y? Pretty simple when you look at it objectively.

[sailor723]

Makes you wonder how much additional Toyota or Honda production we might have here if we'd offered them billions?....

Or maybe a brand new Hyundai or Nissan plant?

[PJungnitsch]

Makes you wonder how much additional Toyota or Honda production we might have here if we'd offered them billions?....

Or maybe a brand new Hyundai or Nissan plant?

That's what I was thinking. The 3-4? billion going to GM and Chrysler from Canada is real money. Surely you could build a plant for a billion each, making vehicles we buy from companies that have their sh*t together.

Say a Mazda 2&3 plant, a Hyundai/Kia plant for what they still bring import from Korea, maybe a fullsize pickup/next gen Ranger plant for Ford.

[Leviathan]

Say a Mazda 2&3 plant,

That would make sense given the #s Mazda does on the 3.

[articsteve]

Makes you wonder how much additional Toyota or Honda production we might have here if we'd offered them billions?....

Or maybe a brand new Hyundai or Nissan plant?

Chrysler owes 500 million at least in back taxes to the CRA (us) which WE will never recover.  Seize all Chrysler's assembly plants now and throw 2 BILLION inside each one.  Then ask the VW, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai (players who will mostly likely remain) if they're interested.

The American Century is over.  Bushism sealed it.  Time to move on.  Throwing $$ at GM Canada and particularly Chrysler is such a loser.  Eventually, GM and Fiat will pull out of Canada when the FEDS finally can no longer politically pour money down the drain while other industries tank.

[toolatecrew]

Makes you wonder how much additional Toyota or Honda production we might have here if we'd offered them billions?....

Or maybe a brand new Hyundai or Nissan plant?

Chrysler owes 500 million at least in back taxes to the CRA (us) which WE will never recover.  Seize all Chrysler's assembly plants now and throw 2 BILLION inside each one.  Then ask the VW, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai (players who will mostly likely remain) if they're interested.

The American Century is over.  Bushism sealed it.  Time to move on.  Throwing $$ at GM Canada and particularly Chrysler is such a loser.  Eventually, GM and Fiat will pull out of Canada when the FEDS finally can no longer politically pour money down the drain while other industries tank.

Only if we also change the laws that require the CAW to go along with any former CAW facility. I'd guess that even if the government offered the seized Chrysler plant to Automakers fro free it would remain empty.

I do agree that we should be targeting whoever will build cars and put jobs here in Canada. Mazda is a top seller in Canada they are an obvious choice. Hyundia is seeing sales growth in these hard times. Make it more attractive for them to build cars in Canada than the US. With the US blatantly favouring their own companies now is a prime time to to strike as being imparital. All forigen companies money is the same and the US is a still a forigen company last time I checked.

[tenpenny]

2.Automakers don't only build cars, they build engines, they build components or simply buy them from foreigned or domestic suppliers. 

If you had bothered to read the original GM survival plan document a couple of months ago, you would have noticed that a North American built Toyota has virtually the same North American CONTENT as a NA-built Chrysler, and only a couple of points behing Ford and GM.

So while you spin a fine tale, it's not backed up by facts which are easily accessible if you bothered to look.

[toolatecrew]

I knew this out there somewhere and finally found it:

General Motors of Canada Ltd., which touts its regional engineering centre in Oshawa as a shining example of research and development, has eliminated staff again.

The teetering automaker cut approximately 50 employees from a workforce of about 250 at the centre this week, sources said yesterday.

Staffing at the centre, which opened in 2000 in an area covering 100,000 square feet, reached a peak of about 400 employees a few years ago but has since slid significantly.

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/615959

GM does more RD in Canada than anyone else? Big whoop de doo. All of 200 people which is HALF of what it was (and falling)

The sources added that the company plans further job reductions at the centre during the next few months.

GM recived Millions in government funding and grants for this Center.
Saying GM does the most RD in Canada is like saying you are the best ice fisherman in the Sahara.

Many parts suppliers are shared by Honda, Toyota Chrysler Ford and GM. But many of those suppliers are in trouble becuase Chrysler has sut down for months. Once again the imporatnt thing is not who builds the cars..its that they BUILD cars and build them in canada.

[Patate]

I knew this out there somewhere and finally found it:

General Motors of Canada Ltd., which touts its regional engineering centre in Oshawa as a shining example of research and development, has eliminated staff again.

The teetering automaker cut approximately 50 employees from a workforce of about 250 at the centre this week, sources said yesterday.

Staffing at the centre, which opened in 2000 in an area covering 100,000 square feet, reached a peak of about 400 employees a few years ago but has since slid significantly.

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/615959

GM does more RD in Canada than anyone else? Big whoop de doo. All of 200 people which is HALF of what it was (and falling)

The sources added that the company plans further job reductions at the centre during the next few months.

GM recived Millions in government funding and grants for this Center.
Saying GM does the most RD in Canada is like saying you are the best ice fisherman in the Sahara.

Many parts suppliers are shared by Honda, Toyota Chrysler Ford and GM. But many of those suppliers are in trouble becuase Chrysler has sut down for months. Once again the imporatnt thing is not who builds the cars..its that they BUILD cars and build them in canada.

I'll say it again: if GM made billions of profits, they wouldn't have cut those jobs.  GM is about to file for bankrupty, what do you expect? that they hire like crazy?

We should do  "Canadian workforce/ cars sold."  While GM shouldn't be amazing, it'll probably be higher than Toyota.  The highest should be Chrysler, while explains why it sells so much in Canada, and so little in the US.

[toolatecrew]

I knew this out there somewhere and finally found it:

General Motors of Canada Ltd., which touts its regional engineering centre in Oshawa as a shining example of research and development, has eliminated staff again.

The teetering automaker cut approximately 50 employees from a workforce of about 250 at the centre this week, sources said yesterday.

Staffing at the centre, which opened in 2000 in an area covering 100,000 square feet, reached a peak of about 400 employees a few years ago but has since slid significantly.

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/615959

GM does more RD in Canada than anyone else? Big whoop de doo. All of 200 people which is HALF of what it was (and falling)

The sources added that the company plans further job reductions at the centre during the next few months.

GM recived Millions in government funding and grants for this Center.
Saying GM does the most RD in Canada is like saying you are the best ice fisherman in the Sahara.

Many parts suppliers are shared by Honda, Toyota Chrysler Ford and GM. But many of those suppliers are in trouble becuase Chrysler has sut down for months. Once again the imporatnt thing is not who builds the cars..its that they BUILD cars and build them in canada.

I'll say it again: if GM made billions of profits, they wouldn't have cut those jobs.  GM is about to file for bankrupty, what do you expect? that they hire like crazy?

We should do  "Canadian workforce/ cars sold."  While GM shouldn't be amazing, it'll probably be higher than Toyota.  The highest should be Chrysler, while explains why it sells so much in Canada, and so little in the US.

At this point I can't even follow what your argument is.

Gm has been cutting jobs for YEARS. Not recently becuase of bankruptcy for YEARS. GM is not going to be hiring people no. Gm is going to sell far less cars and produce far less cars than they have in years past.

Other manufactures will not produce less cars. They will NOT have fewer jobs. Therefore we need to support and encource manufacturers who will produce cars and and maintian or INCREASE jobs in Canada. I cannot comprehend what is so hard to understand about that.

I don't understand what it is so hard to understand about this equation:

Company X supplies 4000 jobs in Canada.Tehy will not cut jobs. They do not need Government (read taxpayer) loans to survive.
Company Y supplies 4000 jobs. They will cut more of those jobs. They require Billions in Taxpayer funded loans (and owe 1/2 Billion in back atxes)

Which company contributes MORE to the Canadian economy? Jobs and factories generate disposable income plus tax revenue= total contribution..BUT

Total Contribution - Government support=True Contribution.
If a company contributes 100M in Taxes but we need to loan them 1 B dollars to do it its a net negative.

[quadzilla]

This has to be the statement of the year.

I'll say it again: if GM made billions of profits, they wouldn't have cut those jobs.  GM is about to file for bankrupty, what do you expect? that they hire like crazy?

If I was filthy rich I wouldn't be typing this note from my office today.

[Honda Owner]

I guess you change opinions as you see fit, if it's to help your 7-billions-for-3months-money-losing Toyota

I know there is not much point in trying to make a logical argument with a GM fanboi but here goes....

GM lives only on corporate welfare. It has lost $135 BILLION US dollars in the last three years. The company is bust, bankrupt, finished as we know it. It is going to shed jobs like crazy in the next three years. I, as a taxpayer, highly resent being forced to bankroll a company that is so obviously financially inept. If I run my business into the ground, do you think I can pony up to the taxpayer for welfare? Har, har!

The Civic and Corolla are the biggest selling cars in Canada and have been for years. They are made in Canada of more than 70% Canadian content. They employ Canadians in safe, secure, well paying jobs and provide Canadian consumers a product the obviously want to buy. They have not received one dime in corporate welfare. Both operations are financially sound and will continue to deliver high quality product that customers are eager to buy. They are not going anywhere but up in Canada. The will build more product here as time goes on and that is an excellent thing for Canada because these jobs are secure.

So, sir, if like the Silverado so much, GO BUY ONE! This is the one and only thing that will keep them available. GM's welfare has run out now, it will get no more and it only has itself to blame because at the end of the day, if a business goes belly up, it is nobody's fault but it's own.

[toolatecrew]

I knew this out there somewhere and finally found it:

General Motors of Canada Ltd., which touts its regional engineering centre in Oshawa as a shining example of research and development, has eliminated staff again.

The teetering automaker cut approximately 50 employees from a workforce of about 250 at the centre this week, sources said yesterday.

Staffing at the centre, which opened in 2000 in an area covering 100,000 square feet, reached a peak of about 400 employees a few years ago but has since slid significantly.

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/615959

GM does more RD in Canada than anyone else? Big whoop de doo. All of 200 people which is HALF of what it was (and falling)

The sources added that the company plans further job reductions at the centre during the next few months.

GM recived Millions in government funding and grants for this Center.
Saying GM does the most RD in Canada is like saying you are the best ice fisherman in the Sahara.

Many parts suppliers are shared by Honda, Toyota Chrysler Ford and GM. But many of those suppliers are in trouble becuase Chrysler has sut down for months. Once again the imporatnt thing is not who builds the cars..its that they BUILD cars and build them in canada.

I'll say it again: if GM made billions of profits, they wouldn't have cut those jobs.  GM is about to file for bankrupty, what do you expect? that they hire like crazy?

We should do  "Canadian workforce/ cars sold."  While GM shouldn't be amazing, it'll probably be higher than Toyota.  The highest should be Chrysler, while explains why it sells so much in Canada, and so little in the US.

Oh and please stop with the Manufacting in Canada vs Sales talk.

Its been thougholy debunked. Mazda as the 3rd best selling car in Canada. They have no workforce here. Many companies sell 1000s of cars but have no workforce here. Where the car is produced is not a major factor in sales.

COmpanies are not attracted to manufacturing cars in Canada becuase they sell the cars IN CANADA. They build cars in Canada becuase it makes economic sense for them to do so and sell those cars in Canada or US.

There are the Cars GM makes in Canada: Buick Allure and Buick LaCrosse Oshawa Car
Chevrolet Camaro Oshawa Car
Chevrolet Equinox Ingersoll CAMI Automotive
Chevrolet Impala Oshawa Car
Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra Oshawa Car

All those vehicles sell in FAR greater numbers in the US than Canada. Manufacturers do NOT base manufacturing of Vehicles on Canadina sales numbers.

They base it on where it is most profitable. Manufacturing in Canada remains "profitable" (I use the word loosley) for GM and Chrysler becuase the Government is propping them up. Rather than spending money propping UP manufacturers who absolutley positivley will employ FEWER people and produce LESS cars going forward can you present an argument it makes more ense than using the $ to attact Manufacturers that will employ more people,build new plants and produce more cars (or at least not declining numbers) going forward.

[johngenx]

Canadian auto workers are more attractive than their US counterparts primarily thanks to socialized health care.  Health care costs in the US are astronomical, and a shockingly large percentage of the US pay package consists of those benefits.

The old AutoPact said that if you wanted to sell cars in Canada without duty or penalties, you had to build cars here.  Not necessarily sell the exact cars you built here, but simply provide the high-value manufacturing jobs.  This was called "negotiated trade" and it worked.  Yes, before "free trade" there was trade!  Lots of it!!