Author Topic: Yowza Cop Car! (Read 2502 times)

johngenx · « **on:** April 23, 2009, 04:16:10 pm »

I'm joining the force if I can have one!!

http://jalopnik.com/5223836/carbon-motors-e7-nypd-cool

Oz · « **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2009, 05:07:31 pm »

Isn't this that purpose built specialized police vehicle?

I dunno, looks fugly... but then again you dont need cop cars to look pretty.

The Mighty Duck · « **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2009, 05:10:01 pm »

This was posted a while ago. I'm surprised it's taken this long for a purpose-built police car to emerge. It only makes sense, given the unique uses these cars are put to. I wonder if Carbon has considered doing a Taxi version as well, since some of the needs (durability, long-term comfort) would be very similar...

I also still wonder if that engine is sourced from BMW. The performance of the carbon sounds very similar to the 335d.

Squishy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2009, 06:16:25 pm »

The Crown Victoria is already pretty much a purpose-built police car. Ballistic door panels, 120 km/h rear impact rating, big V8 & body-on-frame, ample interior space and visibility.

The Carbon is almost identical in size to a Charger, and that's a tight fit for two officers, adequate for one. The main thing for me is the ridiculous tires on the Carbon. The OPP uses V-rated summer and winter tires (no all-seasons); that would be a huge dent in the budget for such large, low-profile tires, and I can't see them holding up to jumping curbs at speed.

The Mighty Duck · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2009, 06:45:49 pm »

The Crown Vic is not a purpose-built police car. It's a police version of what is fundamentally a civilian car. The Carbon is special because it's been designed from the ground up to be a police car. Part of the reason the Charger is "too small" is because things like the laptop cut into interior space. Not the case in the Carbon, because the computer is built into the dash. A purpose-built vehicle designed by professionals should be better than any conversion from a civilian vehicle. That's why Firetrucks are designed as Firetrucks!

The tires are a different story. I wonder if those rims will make the production version, or if they're just on the concept for show? Lots of things we see on production cars do not make the final version...

Squishy · « **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:40:55 pm »

The Crown Vic didn't start out as a police car and was not built from the ground up for such a purpose, but that is essentially what it is now.

Right now the laptops, radar units, radio units, etc., are all modular and are moved from one car to the next as the cars are replaced. Will that be the case with the Carbon? Also, how will it be resold? Crown Vics, Impalas, etc., are resold at 150,000 km and Tahoes are resold at 250,000 km, to balance maintenance costs and resale value. How much would have to be stripped out of the Carbon, and if, say, the AM/FM radio was integrated into the computer display or police radio unit, would it have to be sold without any radio?

The OPP looks like it will be replacing Crown Vics with Tahoes when the CVs end production.

vdk · « **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:49:28 pm »

This one's more interesting...

mmret · « **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:56:53 pm »

The OPP looks like it will be replacing Crown Vics with Tahoes when the CVs end production.

I'm sure they have their reasons but can't one find something else to replace it with? I thought we as a society were stepping back from gigantic SUVs.

Squishy · « **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2009, 08:33:48 pm »

Not many choices for body-on-frame, RWD cars with moderate power and large interior room. The police package Tahoes are lowered six inches so they're more like a HUGE wagon.

I don't know how fuel mileage compares between the Crown Vic and the Tahoe. They did determine that the Tahoes can be kept 100,000 km longer, though.

The Mighty Duck · « **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2009, 08:51:07 pm »

Quote from: Squishy on April 23, 2009, 07:40:55 pm

The Crown Vic didn't start out as a police car and was not built from the ground up for such a purpose, but that is essentially what it is now.

Then it's not a purpose-built vehicle at all, is it? Thanks for proving my point for me.

Quote

Right now the laptops, radar units, radio units, etc., are all modular and are moved from one car to the next as the cars are replaced. Will that be the case with the Carbon? Also, how will it be resold? Crown Vics, Impalas, etc., are resold at 150,000 km and Tahoes are resold at 250,000 km, to balance maintenance costs and resale value. How much would have to be stripped out of the Carbon, and if, say, the AM/FM radio was integrated into the computer display or police radio unit, would it have to be sold without any radio?

Carbon says they plan to buy back the cars at the end of their lifecycle. What they plan to do with them then, I have no idea. Maybe reuse all those components like the computer and pass the savings on to buyers... And unlike Crown Vics, the Carbon has a duty life of 250 000km, for the same purchase price as a CV. So there's savings built right in. And that's before you consider the fuel economy benefits and purpose-built nature of the vehicle.

Honestly, you're trying to argue that a civilian vehicle will be better suited to this work than a purpose-built vehicle designed by the people that use it every day. That's a lost cause if ever I saw one...

vdk · « **Reply #10 on:** April 23, 2009, 08:54:20 pm »

Tahoes look frightening still... That's a big plus ++ .

Squishy · « **Reply #11 on:** April 23, 2009, 09:04:53 pm »

No, I'm arguing that the Carbon implementation of such a vehicle isn't good enough to make it that attractive to police services over a police package car. Would a police officer pick this vehicle over a Crown Vic? Absolutely. But you have to convince the pencil-pushers as well.

And I said the Crown Vic didn't start out as a purpose built police vehicle. It has gone through redesigns and now it is pretty much targeted towards law enforcement and fleet sales. How many other civilian vehicles are specifically built for 120 km/h rear impacts and offer optional Kevlar door panels? In fact, how many large sedans have kept the body-on-frame and RWD layout?

The Mighty Duck · « **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2009, 09:24:34 pm »

Quote from: Squishy on April 23, 2009, 09:04:53 pm

No, I'm arguing that the Carbon implementation of such a vehicle isn't good enough. Would a police officer pick this vehicle over a Crown Vic? Absolutely. But you have to convince the pencil-pushers as well.

Without offering any reasons that some simple research on your part would disprove. As to the pencil pushers: I'm quite sure they'll be turned off by the lower cost of ownership. Same price + longer life = lower cost per month. Even if you accept your argument that the tires are going to be crazy expensive vs. tires for a CV, the extra 100 000 miles of service may well outweigh the cost of tires. And even if not, the purpose-built nature of the car is an intangible benefit. Example: according to Carbon, 50% of officer injuries take place in their car. The Carbon is designed to lessen that number (somehow...). What's the health care cost savings there?

Quote

And I said the Crown Vic didn't start out as a purpose built police vehicle. It has gone through redesigns and now it is pretty much targeted towards law enforcement and fleet sales. How many other civilian vehicles are specifically built for 120 km/h rear impacts and offer optional Kevlar door panels? In fact, how many large sedans have kept the body-on-frame and RWD layout?

And in spite of all that, it's still a conversion. Ford builds the Crown Vic, sells it to the police, and then they have all of their equipment installed after the fact. The Carbon is built from the ground up for police needs, designed by police officers. That's a big difference. You're arguing that the CV is the best car currently on the market for police duty. That's probably true. But it's not the point here. The point is, is the CV better than a vehicle that's purpose built from the ground up? IMO, no.

And you haven't provided any reasoning that te CV is better than the Carbon, other than "it's bigger" and "the tires". A Civic is bigger than a Fit, but the Fit has a larger interior because it has better packaging. So absolute size is not particularly relevant. Comparing the interior of the Charger to the Carbon is silly, because the Charger's interior space is compromised by add-on accessories like the computer. The Carbon might have the same physical space, but with better packaging, it seems like it will accomodate the needs of its users.

Those wheels are steel, but there is something to be said for smaller wheels/tires being preferable. But that's an easy fix, and it seems foolish to write off an entire vehicle because of one easily changed component. And keep in mind, bigger wheels allow for bigger brakes.

Giant Dwarf · « **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2009, 09:48:17 pm »

Quote from: vdk on April 23, 2009, 07:49:28 pm

This one's more interesting...

Ahh yes, good old Halton Region using the "Taxi" cruiser. My wife spotted that one a few weeks ago north of Oakville.

***

Demo, my first thought was "I can't believe it took a company so long to create a purpose-built police car either". I'm keen to hear City's thoughts on this one...

Squishy · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2009, 10:02:24 pm »

Okay, here's my list:

Pros:
-Seats are claimed to be more comfortable than a Crown Vic
-Longer service life (that's 250,000 miles)
-Good fuel economy
-Streamlined lights
-Lots of gadgets
-Looks like there's better visibility than out of a Charger, not sure about the Crown Vic
-Cost is supposed to be equal to the current Crown Vics

Cons:
-There is no civilian counterpart, so "unmarked" cruisers would stick out like a sore thumb
-Existing equipment for current cars can't be carried over when cars are switched to the Carbon (which is a short term hit for possible long term benefit)
-Being so integrated, radar units, laptops, etc. can't be simply switched out when they fail (don't know if that happens with the current cars, but sounds plausible)
-All this integrated equipment makes it harder for aftermarket support, equipment repairs, equipment upgrades, and makes it hard to switch away from the Carbon once it is adopted. Carbon might become the Apple of law enforcement vehicles.
-The tires - hopefully fixed by production time
-I'm not sure about the suicide rear doors. I think an 180-degree door hinged at the front would work better.
-Oh, and I think it looks ridiculous. Mostly the integrated push-bars at such a weird angle; looks like nose-rings to me.

I'm not trying to write off the entire car, but there is room for improvement, mostly due to all the proprietary equipment. Instead of doing that, they could make room in the dash to place equipment from the police service's manufacturer of choice, which would allow them to keep all the equipment standard across the fleet. Have a built-in laptop mount where the current screen is, mounting points for a radio in the centre console, etc.

I don't know how they would solve the problem of unmarked cars. License an exterior shell design from a manufacturer? Produce a civilian version of the E7?

The Mighty Duck · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2009, 10:09:17 pm »

Unmarked cars. Why not just continue doing what they do now, and use unmarked cars? Many police forces already use vehicles other than Crown Vics for ghost cars. And I'm not sure that an unmarked Carbon would stick out much... most people have very little interest in cars and would probably not recognize an unmarked Carbon for what it was anyway.

Equipment is an interesting one, but I think the benefits of having standard equipment that works with the car outweigh the downsides of potential propriety issues. I think most of what officers need comes down to software, so whether the computer is brand X or Y shouldn't make much difference. As to switching away from the Carbon in the future... why should it make it more difficult? As long as the computers can talk to each other, it's like adding a Mac into a Windows environment. Not a big deal.

The rest are pretty minor, so...

Giant Dwarf · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2009, 10:09:24 pm »

...or perhaps they just aren't used for unmarked car duty? Maybe Impalas and Chargers will still serve that, but for everything else -- regular patrol -- this could really do the trick.

mmret · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2009, 11:43:55 pm »

Is it me or does the front look like an Acura

Mitlov · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2009, 03:51:55 am »

Quote from: mmret on April 23, 2009, 07:56:53 pm

The OPP looks like it will be replacing Crown Vics with Tahoes when the CVs end production.

I'm sure they have their reasons but can't one find something else to replace it with? I thought we as a society were stepping back from gigantic SUVs.

Three words: body. on. frame. With the demise of the Crown Vic, the only way to get body-on-frame durability is an SUV or truck.

That said, the Charger's proved really popular around here. I love seeing it in police colors and lights. What amazing road presence.

Wolverine · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2009, 07:50:44 am »

The Carbon looks ok, looks like a car Robocop would drive.

Ford would be very dumb if they just halt CVPI production without something to leave in its place...