Topic: Something as simple as antifreeze has helped torpedo GM

[articsteve]

GM is the only automobile company to use Dexcool as a coolant anti freeze.  IMO, it is the primary reason that GM engines have gained a poor reputation for durability vis-a-vis leaking gaskets.  It was introduced in 1996 and is still, unbelievably, in use illustrating the dysfunctional state of GM.

Vibe owners should read this interesting comment regarding Dexcool used in GM dealerships.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/piston-slap-losing-lifeblood-in-the-yukon-territory/#more-311538

Here is my experience and theories about Dexcool, and I believe Dexcool is the root of the problems in this truck.

There are three basic coolant/antifreezes on the market today.

the classic Green antifreeze
the Hybrid OAT
and Dexcool

the original, green antifreeze/coolant has been around for decades and works very well. It is actually a byproduct of gasoline production and was discovered because Standard Oil was dumping it into a river in New Jersey and they realized that the river that froze over every year quit freezing in the winter. And they realized, wow… what a great antifreeze…we can actually SELL this stuff. Anyway, its main downfall is that it has silicates which can wear out water pumps faster and should be changed fairly regularly, every two years or so. General knowledge about it is that it is alkaline in nature. Keep it in your older cars and change it often.

Back in the 1996, GM and Texaco rolled out a brand new antifreeze/coolant called Dexcool. They put it in EVERY new car they made, even models that had regular coolant in it the year before. It is acidic in nature, and is called OAT antifreeze. OAT stands for Organic Acid Technology. So they suddenly flipped all of their engines from alkaline to acidic coolant overnight without any other modifications and said Hey, dont change it for 5 years or 150,000 miles! WHAT?!? Dexcool, as an OAT coolant is similar, but not the same as coolants that BMW and Mercedes uses in their aluminum engines. Why? It is my guess, that after the HT4100 disaster and other problems GM had with aluminum engines and iron block/aluminum head combinations, they figured that they would leapfrog (GM never tries to do that) other peoples tried and true innovations. But the thing is, not all of GM’s engines has aluminum components, most are old legacy designs from the sixties. GM, with one broad stroke just changed coolants, with what I believe was very little testing (GM would never rush anything into production, right?!?)

Anyway, that leads me to the third coolant. The Hybrid OAT. Hybrid OAT coolants are used by EVERY OTHER MODERN AUTOMAKER TODAY EXCEPT GM. Mostly it is yellow in color. Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, etc, uses Hybrid OAT coolant. There are small secret variations. Toyota has it’s own factory coolant called “Toyota Red” BMW swears that you should use BMW coolant in their vehicles, etc. But in reality, they are all Hybrid OATS. Two interesting stories. In 1999 Ford used Dexcool in one model car they made. The 1999 Mercury Cougar. It was a complete disaster. They switched back to green the next year. Ford started using Hybrid OAT yellow coolant in 2003 models and actually has “NO DEXCOOL” illustrations on all of their radiator caps now. Chrysler tested Dexcool and supposedly said no way. They went with Hybrid OAT, under Mercedes leadership. Another interesting story is that of the Pontiac Vibe. It is the only GM vehicle that leaves the factory without Dexcool. It is filled with Toyota Red, because it is made in the NUMMI plant and is basically a tall Corolla Wagon. Unfortunately I am sure Dexcool is mixed and used when they are serviced at Pontiac Dealers. I would really not advise this practice.

How and why do I know all of this crap? Because I have owned and currently own several GM cars with cooling system problems that are the result of Dexcool. How do I know this? Only on a low mileage, well maintained GM dexcool car you open the radiator cap and see orange mud and rust that is nearly impossible to remove. This coolant does not play well with old iron block engines. It seems to cover everything in a thick coating of rusty goop. It attacks the seals of the intake manifold and they all will eventually leak. It is a major problem on all 1996 and up 3.1, 3.4, 3.8, 4.3 V6’s and 5.3, and 5.7L V8’s.

What I did on my 5.7L Suburban, after loosing a Radiator, Intake mainfold gasket #1 and subsequently engine #1, water pump #2 and intake manifold gasket #2 was change to a Hybrid OAT coolant that EVERY OTHER MAJOR AUTO MANUFACTURER IN THE WORLD uses. Since then, I have had no other cooling problems. The only clue that Dexcool was there at one time is a stained orange coolant overflow tank (just TRY to get that thing clean… not gonna happen) and Radiator #2 has a scary rusty orange coating that is not getting any worse since I have been running the Hybrid OAT coolant.

I would suggest you find and fix your coolant leak (intake mainfold gasket) and refill with the coolant that EVERY AUTOMAKER IN THE WORLD USES. (except the super successful automaker with the huge stock price, and so many customers that they need 12 different brands, General Motors)

[barrie1]

Your beating a dead horse here with this nonsence now steve. Everybody already knows all about it and that has passed with those model years as well. The remedy has been out for years now and everybody knows it as well wether you can drum more GM bias or not. 

[Mitlov]

I would suggest you find and fix your coolant leak (intake mainfold gasket) and refill with the coolant that EVERY AUTOMAKER IN THE WORLD USES. (except the super successful automaker with the huge stock price, and so many customers that they need 12 different brands, General Motors)

This is why I don't read TTAC.  Is this article the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?  I don't know.  But snarky pot-shots like this that have nothing whatsoever to do with the rest of the article, reveal a deep-seated editorial bias that undermines their overall credibility in my mind, even if this particular article is accurate.

[21Rouge]

Very timely Steve given this current recall:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/2009/04/16/engine-gasket-recall-affects-128000-gm-vehicles.htm

[articsteve]

Everybody already knows all about it

I would guess that .00001% of current GM owners are aware of this problem.

and that has passed with those model years as well.

Dexcool use continues in all GM cars.

The remedy has been out for years now

The only remedy is to remove it.  How many GM owners do that while under warranty.  GM dealerships only stock Dexcool

[articsteve]

This is why I don't read TTAC.  Is this article the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?  I don't know.  But snarky pot-shots like this that have nothing whatsoever to do with the rest of the article, reveal a deep-seated editorial bias that undermines their overall credibility in my mind, even if this particular article is accurate.

The material I posted was ONE comment from a reader.  To this date, I have not read a better explanation of the Dexcool problem expressed in simple terms.

Why I posted this in the "General" section and not "Technical" was that it should get noticed by more readers who will have an opportunity to remove their Dexcool if they own a GM product and save themselves much grief.

In response to your rant;  how in the world is GM to succeed if they can't come to terms with the defective anti-freeze that they use.  It's been 15 years now and they have by a factor of 10 the most gasket coolant leaks in the industry. 

[rrocket]

IIRC, when Honda supplied the engines for the Saturn SUV, they specifically said "NO DEXCOOL IN OUR ENGINES".  I vaguely remember reading it (and have no link)..so you can take this with a grain of salt.

Did the Honda-engined Saturns use Dex-cool, or something different?  **EDIT  Ok it seems Honda did in fact object to Dex-Cool use...but was ignored by GM. 

Good read: http://www.gates.com/downloads/download_common.cfm?file=MOTORCoolantFeature.pdf&folder=brochure

[articsteve]

They got filled with Dexcool.   

[21Rouge]

In response to your rant;  how in the world is GM to succeed if they can't come to terms with the defective anti-freeze that they use.  It's been 15 years now and they have by a factor of 10 the most gasket coolant leaks in the industry. 

I find it such a stretch that GM either knowingly continues...going on two decades...to use a liquid which directly leads to gasket coolant leaks OR is incorrect in thinking that dexcool does not directly lead to such leaks. To perpetuate either option would require a conspiracy of major proportions  .

And has it not been the case that leaking gaskets for the past 4 or 5 MY has been much less prevalent...but still Dexcool is the factory fill of choice. Why do you not think the probem has been solved?

[rrocket]

I find it such a stretch that GM either knowingly continues...going on two decades...to use a liquid which directly leads to gasket coolant leaks OR is incorrect in thinking that dexcool does not directly lead to such leaks. To perpetuate either option would require a conspiracy of major proportions  .

I don't think a conspiracy....just ego.."We're the biggest car manufacturer in the world..we know what we're doing!".  I've had to personally deal with this issue (2002 Alero) and the dealers themselves would curse the coolant as the issue.  They would TELL the customers that's what it was.  Our dealer anyways.  GM also lost a class action lawsuit with regards to this.  They KNOW about this just like every mechanic and car enthusiast.

Why have they gotten better recently?  Perhaps they made some special gaskets?  I know they FINALLY did for the Alero.  But it took years of feet dragging and a lawsuit to get there.  Did they pay something hefty licensing fee or something to be compelled to run Dex-Cool for X number of years?  Dex-Cool was a big part of GMs advertising no maintenance for 100,000 miles... 

[Wolfe]

In response to your rant;  how in the world is GM to succeed if they can't come to terms with the defective anti-freeze that they use.  It's been 15 years now and they have by a factor of 10 the most gasket coolant leaks in the industry. 

I find it such a stretch that GM either knowingly continues...going on two decades...to use a liquid which directly leads to gasket coolant leaks OR is incorrect in thinking that dexcool does not directly lead to such leaks. To perpetuate either option would require a conspiracy of major proportions  .

There's no conspiracy necessary.

They just apply the formula: A x B x C = X, if X is less than the cost of issuing a recall (or otherwise fixing the problem) they don't do it.

[21Rouge]

In response to your rant;  how in the world is GM to succeed if they can't come to terms with the defective anti-freeze that they use.  It's been 15 years now and they have by a factor of 10 the most gasket coolant leaks in the industry. 

I find it such a stretch that GM either knowingly continues...going on two decades...to use a liquid which directly leads to gasket coolant leaks OR is incorrect in thinking that dexcool does not directly lead to such leaks. To perpetuate either option would require a conspiracy of major proportions  .

There's no conspiracy necessary.

They just apply the formula: A x B x C = X, if X is less than the cost of issuing a recall (or otherwise fixing the problem) they don't do it.

Okay so GM doesnt want the mother of all recalls, so why not just reformulate Dexcool in MY X (assuming Dexcool is the problem rather than poorly designed gaskets)?

[21Rouge]

Why have they gotten better recently?  Perhaps they made some special gaskets?  

Which then leads to the conclusion that Dexcool is/was not the problem but rather a poorly designed, poorly tested gasket.

[tpl]

Why have they gotten better recently?  Perhaps they made some special gaskets?  

Which then leads to the conclusion that Dexcool is no longer the problem...if it ever was.

Presumably if Dexcool ate some plastics in some gaskets then why not make gaskets out of a plastic that resists Dexcool.  or vice-versa.   Sounds likely to me that GM has done one  or both.

[ovr50]

Your beating a dead horse here with this nonsence now steve. Everybody already knows all about it and that has passed with those model years as well. The remedy has been out for years now and everybody knows it as well wether you can drum more GM bias or not. 

Appears that the above comment is pure BS. Model years 1995 to 2004 are affected, and settlements are still being paid out by GM currently. Hardly a dead horse, and the lawsuit was only agreed upon in 2006.

The attached link shows that the Dexcool problem in very much alive and current. The only remedy so far seems to be a class-action lawsuit against GM.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/gm_dexcool.html

Last post was only two days ago regarding this still-ONGOING problem for some owners of GM products.

Another link regarding possible settlement by GM: (posted end of Mar08 so is not brand new):

http://www.greenflagauto.com/comments.php?catid=1&shownews=322

[Thinking Out Loud]

Why have they gotten better recently?  Perhaps they made some special gaskets?  

Which then leads to the conclusion that Dexcool is/was not the problem but rather a poorly designed, poorly tested gasket.

Not necessarily - one could equally conclude that the issue only manifests itself after 'x' years of use, breaking down the gasket.  To the contrary of your point, this would suggest that EVERY gasket in EVERY engine was poorly designed -gross incompetance on a spectacular scale.

As the 'beneficiary' of a $3,000 head job on my 1994 Sunbird thanks to a head gasket failure, I'm thinking the simple answer is the logical answer - the common thread, regardless of motor, the DexCool.

Elementary, my dear Watson.....elementary.  

[ovr50]

http://law.taragana.net/archive/general-motors-settles-class-action-lawsuit-over-coolant-dex-cool/

The settlement.

[21Rouge]

Why have they gotten better recently?  Perhaps they made some special gaskets?  

Which then leads to the conclusion that Dexcool is/was not the problem but rather a poorly designed, poorly tested gasket.

To the contrary of your point, this would suggest that EVERY gasket in EVERY engine was poorly designed -gross incompetance on a spectacular scale. 

But I dont recall Cadillacs/Corvettes of this era having the infamous head gasket leak? I am wrong? I assume they also have dexcool from the factory. So were they built with different gaskets back then??

[rrocket]

Which then leads to the conclusion that Dexcool is/was not the problem but rather a poorly designed, poorly tested gasket.

Every other coolant seems to be compatible with gaskets and doesn't eat them.  Dex-Cool seems to eat them...so I'd say it IS a problem with Dex-Cool....

[PJungnitsch]

From what I understand the GM intake manifold leaks are a combination of a lot of things, the biggest issue being the switch to making the manifold out of plastic instead of metal.

The plastic tends break down and deform over time, especially because of hot exhaust gases from the EGR system which run through it. As the plastic degrades the hold down bolts loosen, all making it very tough for the gasket to seal, especially as Dexcool wicks through small gaps very easily.

GM has had various fixes, starting with just different gaskets, then going to gaskets plus hold down bolts coated with loctite, then reinforced plastic manifolds with metal shielding around the EGR system, and finally aluminum manifolds.

Of course Dex-cool has it's own demons. As far as I can make out it tends to build up dissolved solids, which raises the conductivity of the coolant, which causes it to conduct electricity resulting in breakdown of various cooling system components through electrolysis. Something that gets mentioned is to check Dex-cool coolant with a voltmeter and chuck it at a certain stray voltage level.