Author Topic: Chrysler-Fiat alliance: Marriage of inconvenience (Read 2873 times)

Thinking Out Loud · « **on:** April 13, 2009, 06:27:38 am »

From the Star:

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/617141

QUOTE:

What's unfolding here is a complicated solution to a relatively simple problem. Fiat's small-car lineup will have to be re-engineered to meet stricter North American safety requirements. Chrysler's plants will have to be retooled, and its workforce retrained. That's a three- to four-year process. As long as that is to be done with the largesse of Washington, Ottawa and Ontario, why not let Chrysler itself spend its bailout money developing a lineup of small, eco-friendly cars of its own, engineered and built by Americans and Canadians?

...because they have never been able to? Lot's of stuff rebadged from Japanese partners.

The complicated solution IS to expect the N/A (Chrysler more so as it has no global platorms to speak of) manus to suddenly understand and sastify this small car market - what is another $1,000,000,000 gonna do to accomplish that, and who is going to buy it if it is the same 'caliber as the Caliber' if you'll pardon the pun.

Author's intentions are well meaning but do not correlate with the reality of N/A manus for - oh say - the past 100 years. North AMERICANS are larger folk on average. How do you get a guy from Austin Texas at 6'3" and 210 lbs to design a car any smaller than the Caliber?

sailor723 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2009, 06:56:47 am »

Another point that I haven't seen much press coverage on in NA is about Fiat itself. Would having their small cars actually do Chrysler any good? I've read a couple of things online (sorry don't remember where) that Fiat scores consistantly at the bottom of most European car reviews and consumer rankings. It sounds like a lot of Europeans still view them as "Fix It Again Tony". Chrysler has more than enough quality,reliability problems of their own without importing more!

I can't help thinking that the whole Fiat thing is just a red herring thrown out by a company who'll say or do just about anything for bailout cash.

tpl · « **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2009, 07:03:33 am »

If I were to have the choice in Canada to be able to buy a Fiat car I would want to buy a real Fiat made in Italy by Italians ( or whatever GastArbeiters they have in Italy) with a Fiat Badge and a Fiat name ( like Multipla or Punto or something) from a Fiat dealership staffed with people with a vowel at the end of their names....( located in Woodbridge even!

)

I think it is unlikely that we will ever see a Fiat franchise return to NA and if Chrysler do some kind of deal then it is even more unlikely.

Thinking Out Loud · « **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2009, 08:00:23 am »

Quote from: sailor723 on April 13, 2009, 06:56:47 am

Another point that I haven't seen much press coverage on in NA is about Fiat itself. Would having their small cars actually do Chrysler any good? I've read a couple of things online (sorry don't remember where) that Fiat scores consistantly at the bottom of most European car reviews and consumer rankings. It sounds like a lot of Europeans still view them as "Fix It Again Tony". Chrysler has more than enough quality,reliability problems of their own without importing more!

I can't help thinking that the whole Fiat thing is just a red herring thrown out by a company who'll say or do just about anything for bailout cash.

I was thinking about that....but is it possible that the bottom of a European rating system (likely with substantially higher expectations of it's buying public) could still be 100% better than a Chrysler in terms of fit & finish and public perception?

Quote from: tpl on April 13, 2009, 07:03:33 am

If I were to have the choice in Canada to be able to buy a Fiat car I would want to buy a real Fiat made in Italy by Italians ( or whatever GastArbeiters they have in Italy) with a Fiat Badge and a Fiat name ( like Multipla or Punto or something) from a Fiat dealership staffed with people with a vowel at the end of their names....( located in Woodbridge even! )

I think it is unlikely that we will ever see a Fiat franchise return to NA and if Chrysler do some kind of deal then it is even more unlikely.

, unfortunately.....it would have to be marketed as a Fiat, otherwise, see:

C:/GM/Saturn/Opel/Failuretocommunicate

Look at Mini, owned by Germans with a British chap doing the ads....insert Fiat with appropriate accent and you've got european flair.....

safristi · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2009, 11:51:04 am »

"assa mota fo you".............sure i'll bite...........said the Pope on his vacation...........

TopGun · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2009, 12:24:09 pm »

Quote from: tpl on April 13, 2009, 07:03:33 am

If I were to have the choice in Canada to be able to buy a Fiat car I would want to buy a real Fiat made in Italy by Italians ( or whatever GastArbeiters they have in Italy) with a Fiat Badge and a Fiat name ( like Multipla or Punto or something) from a Fiat dealership staffed with people with a vowel at the end of their names....( located in Woodbridge even! )
.....

I know you're kidding...and being a big-time Italian car-guy tpl, I have a hard time disagreeing with you on this one.

At the same time, is this not the crux of the problem we face? When we have the ability to buy the SAME car that we want in Europe…we still choose to not buy because it has a GM/Ford/Chrysler association with it. I'm thinking Saturn Astra here...

This decision has obviously little to do with the quality of the cars…a factor many folks on here wax poetically about.

sailor723 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2009, 12:36:27 pm »

Fair enough.....for a lot of people image makes up a large part of the car buying decision.

In recent years the Detroit 3's image hasn't been the greatest and regardless of improvements to the quality of their cars a negative image can take a long time to turn around.

tpl · « **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2009, 02:17:07 pm »

Quote from: TopGun on April 13, 2009, 12:24:09 pm

Quote from: tpl on April 13, 2009, 07:03:33 am
If I were to have the choice in Canada to be able to buy a Fiat car I would want to buy a real Fiat made in Italy by Italians ( or whatever GastArbeiters they have in Italy) with a Fiat Badge and a Fiat name ( like Multipla or Punto or something) from a Fiat dealership staffed with people with a vowel at the end of their names....( located in Woodbridge even! )
.....

I know you're kidding...and being a big-time Italian car-guy tpl, I have a hard time disagreeing with you on this one.

At the same time, is this not the crux of the problem we face? When we have the ability to buy the SAME car that we want in Europe…we still choose to not buy because it has a GM/Ford/Chrysler association with it. I'm thinking Saturn Astra here...

This decision has obviously little to do with the quality of the cars…a factor many folks on here wax poetically about.

IIRC the first Focus in NA was close to the UK version and people bought it and still do even tho' it no longer has much Ford euro DNA left.
The Contour initially sold well I think
SO Ford tried.
The Astra, according to comments various on this forum seemed to have had two main problems that stopped it selling... make that three. Underpowered, sold in Saturn dealers not mainline GM dealers and then introduced at the start of a recession.

As for my post above.... I feel the same way about the German cars I buy. I want the real thing, be it a cheap VW or an expensive BMW. A real German car with the absolute minimum of changes to get it legal here. That's my point really. Like that 2.5 l engine in the rabbit/Golf... more cheap torque for a slush box and it runs on tractor fuel.... not for me. I want a real engine. ( I suspect the same problem would occur with Chrysler-Fiats. Some creaky old Chrysler engine and slushbox which would ruin a proper Italian car.... but it would run on regular.)

EV Dan · « **Reply #8 on:** April 13, 2009, 02:46:54 pm »

I dont know what are those "safety requirements" that Fiat cannot meet. All I can think of is bumper height and DRLs. To get bumpers leveled up they can tweak with the suspension springs a little, and the lights should not be a problem even if Chrysler are trusted to [re] TOOL them (up) on the spot. I agree they have to import the real thing first, even under the minivan badge, to grab a chunk of the market share. When public gets a taste, the next logical step will be building them here.

articsteve · « **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2009, 03:00:38 pm »

All the speculation involving Fiat and Chrysler centers around product sharing. No mention of CASH infusion from Fiat. It can't possibly work. One of the Detroit 3 must go and it's gonna be Chrysler and it's gonna be next month.

airbalancer · « **Reply #10 on:** April 13, 2009, 03:41:59 pm »

Quote from: articsteve on April 13, 2009, 03:00:38 pm

All the speculation involving Fiat and Chrysler centers around product sharing. No mention of CASH infusion from Fiat. It can't possibly work. One of the Detroit 3 must go and it's gonna be Chrysler and it's gonna be next month.

Can we make this a sticky
AS call the downfall a couple of years, lets see if he call this right

articsteve · « **Reply #11 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:32:53 pm »

I can't remember speculating about Chrysler, but I clearly stated that GM would go into Chapter 11 perhaps more than a few years ago. I can't find the thread, but the usual GM fan boys went ballistic and it would be most enjoyable to re-read.

Industry critics said in 2005 GM was at the point of no return.

Who in 2005 could not see it:

sh*t vehicles in contrast to competition
mega debt
0% plus discounts since 2000

tpl · « **Reply #12 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:33:20 pm »

Quote from: DanYanoff on April 13, 2009, 02:46:54 pm

I dont know what are those "safety requirements" that Fiat cannot meet. All I can think of is bumper height and DRLs. To get bumpers leveled up they can tweak with the suspension springs a little, and the lights should not be a problem even if Chrysler are trusted to [re] TOOL them (up) on the spot. I agree they have to import the real thing first, even under the minivan badge, to grab a chunk of the market share. When public gets a taste, the next logical step will be building them here.

Because the Eu crash tests are different ( not necessarily stricter) from the US ones it may mean that the whole unit body has to be changed in various ways. I'd bet that each and every small change is nothing in itself... an extra spot weld here, a different shaped piece of metal welded in somewhere else, bigger bolts on door hinges... small stuff... until you have to do 10 or 15 things and then find the shell doesn't fit some premade plastic mouldings or the greasy bits any more or is 50 kg heavier than it was.

The German manufacturers seems to have got this one done as they have been selling cars here consistently for 40 years.

toolatecrew · « **Reply #13 on:** April 13, 2009, 05:15:41 pm »

Quote from: TopGun on April 13, 2009, 12:24:09 pm

Quote from: tpl on April 13, 2009, 07:03:33 am
If I were to have the choice in Canada to be able to buy a Fiat car I would want to buy a real Fiat made in Italy by Italians ( or whatever GastArbeiters they have in Italy) with a Fiat Badge and a Fiat name ( like Multipla or Punto or something) from a Fiat dealership staffed with people with a vowel at the end of their names....( located in Woodbridge even! )
.....

I know you're kidding...and being a big-time Italian car-guy tpl, I have a hard time disagreeing with you on this one.

At the same time, is this not the crux of the problem we face? When we have the ability to buy the SAME car that we want in Europe…we still choose to not buy because it has a GM/Ford/Chrysler association with it. I'm thinking Saturn Astra here...

This decision has obviously little to do with the quality of the cars…a factor many folks on here wax poetically about.

We don't have the ability to buy the SAME car.

Example Saturn Astra here are the availabe engiones for the Astra in Europe

1.4L Family 0 I4
1.6L Family I I4
1.8L Family I I4
2.0L Turbo Family II I4
2.2L Family II I4 (Australia)
1.3L CDTi Diesel I4
1.7L CDTi Diesel I4
1.9L CDTi Diesel I4
2.0L Flexpower I4 (Brazil)

Saturn Astra
1.8L Family I I4

NA gets 4 speed auto and 5 speed amanual

Europe Gets those as well as 6 speed manual and 6 speed auto.

Its not even just the engines although that is part of it.

GM Europe launched Astra H/C in March 2004. Saturn started selling the Astra in 2008.

Civic current mdoel 2006 with facelift in 2009. Mazda 3 new model 2009.

They introduced a car well into its life cycle to compete with brand new models. It doesn't mean that the astra is not a good car but its not exactly a level playing field.

Finally while I agree that the Saturn image may be a factor its not just that factor. The Saturn pricing model of no haggle may indicate higher advertised prices as well.

huota · « **Reply #14 on:** April 14, 2009, 12:21:00 pm »

Quote from: sailor723 on April 13, 2009, 06:56:47 am

Another point that I haven't seen much press coverage on in NA is about Fiat itself. Would having their small cars actually do Chrysler any good? I've read a couple of things online (sorry don't remember where) that Fiat scores consistantly at the bottom of most European car reviews and consumer rankings. It sounds like a lot of Europeans still view them as "Fix It Again Tony". Chrysler has more than enough quality,reliability problems of their own without importing more!

Good point. Fiats aren't exactly known for good quality or reliability. They are cheap cars just like Chrysler's own lineup, only smaller.

safristi · « **Reply #15 on:** April 14, 2009, 01:08:00 pm »

CHEAP & SMALL............just wot Canada BUYS...............

..preDOMINATEly.....may i introduce the TINy CALIBRia 600cc.........................

..oh use yer imagination.................FIaT....without the room,class and quality.....

Silent Lucidity · « **Reply #16 on:** April 15, 2009, 04:19:55 am »

$:-\$ Can the CAW see the light?

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090414.wrfiat15/BNStory/Business/home

“Absolutely we are prepared to walk. There is no doubt in my mind,” he said. “We cannot commit to this organization unless we see light at the end of the tunnel.”

Mr. Marchionne, 56, said Chrysler workers on both sides of the border have to end their sense of entitlement if the wrecked auto maker is to have any chance of repairing itself.

sailor723 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2009, 06:43:59 am »

Fiat's position makes perfect sense. They have no vested interest in whether Chrysler survives or not.Why on earth would they accept a deal that has a labour cost that's any higher than the $40-45 of the competition ( North American plants of Honda,Toyota,Nissan etc )?

If the deal makes business sense going forward they'll go ahead. If not, it might make more sense to either cut a deal with whatever might emerge from Chapter 11 or to pick up some Chrysler "pieces" if they go Chapter 7.

tpl · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2009, 07:01:33 am »

Reading the article I think that Fiat have probably given up on the idea already.

After GM's Chapter 11 maybe it would be better to have Fiat back with GM and replace GM's Daewoo imports with Fiats small cars. Then Dorin could have his Fiat 500 Arbarth but called the Corvettino

toolatecrew · « **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2009, 07:49:03 am »

I truly don't see the attraction for Fiat at this point.

They could pick up Chrysleys assets if they want them for pennies on the dollar under a Chapter 7 scenario. They could pick and choose what they want and wpouln't have to assume any of the baggae,debt structure.

If Fiat wants to be a player in North America the entry costs of doing it on their own could possibly be less than assuming Chrysler's issues to do it couldn't they?