Author Topic: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column  (Read 2140 times)

Offline Erik

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Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« on: March 28, 2009, 11:33:16 am »
Just read this in Road and Track. Just another interesting view on the Big Three's problems.

Side Glances
The Retreat of People Who Make Things: Pondering that hard-working endangered species.

By Peter Egan, Editor-at-Large
April 2009
   


On a working trip to California last month, I found myself in a pretty nice place. I was behind the wheel of a new ZR1 Corvette, parked on a winding road north of Santa Barbara, waiting to move the car into position so our photo staff could shoot a cover shot for our March issue. We had six high-performance sports and GT cars in the group, all making 600 or more horsepower.

The road curved downhill toward a Capuchin monastery, scenically perched on a ridge. We'd rented this private road from the monastery so we could shoot photos without highway traffic speeding by.

Only an occasional car or truck came down the road, mostly people arriving for what we were told was a weekend religious retreat. Everyone smiled and waved pleasantly, despite the almost spectral contrast between these cars and our serene location. Lamborghinis and contemplatives aren't always a combination made in heaven, but most passers-by seemed amused by our presence and cheerfully interested in the cars.

It was a beautiful spot, with the sun going down and a full moon rising over the Coastal Range, and we sat for perhaps half an hour, waiting for that magical moment of dusk when cars photograph best. Photographers, like vampires and werewolves, don't really come alive until it's that time of the evening when you should really be looking for the nearest inn. To normal people, this hour is also known as "dinnertime."

As we sat in our cars, waiting for twilight, I found myself pondering the interesting historical connection between good scenery and spiritual reflection. The two just seem to go together. Hardly anybody ever holds a religious retreat in, say, downtown Newark or Gary, Indiana. We like to mend our souls on placid mountaintops or in the clean white deserts, and then test them later in a more industrial setting.

And as I sat in the car, I suddenly realized that my own serene meditative state was slowly being eroded by something on the Corvette's radio. I was half-listening, you see, to a news program. It was a panel discussion, with congressional leaders, economists and various pundits discussing the pros and cons of a Detroit automotive bailout. I turned it up and listened.

It essentially reiterated a wide range of opinion on the subject, which I'd also been following for weeks on TV and in the newspapers.

Some thought we should throw money at the problem to stave off a general meltdown of the U.S. economy and to prevent massive unemployment, not only in the car companies themselves but in the many satellite companies that supply components. And in the companies that sell those employees pizza, shoes, homes, insurance and dish soap. Not to mention car magazines.

Others thought the car companies deserved to go broke because they'd failed to anticipate the sudden rejection of SUVs and trucks by the motoring public — and for simply making too many cars that no one wanted to buy. Bankruptcy would just be "Darwinian economics," one commentator pointed out. It was Nature's way to let dinosaurs go extinct.

Poor Darwin. The cold of heart have always forced a sociological spin on his biological work — from Spencer all the way through Hitler and Stalin — as if humans had no more free will or moral stature than trilobites or the lizards of the Galαpagos Islands. Natural selection is a great excuse to ignore those who have not so richly deserved to succeed as you and I. And I'm not so sure about you...

Still others thought this would be a great time to force the automakers into bankruptcy and break the unions forever. After all, assembly line workers with high seniority were dragging down $71 an hour, if you included medical insurance and all their other benefits. Why should a person who never even graduated from law school or sold a single junk bond get to own a house or send a kid to college? It was baffling. There were highly trained English Majors who didn't make that much, and all these union guys knew how to do was build engines.

To make things worse, CEOs of the domestics had recently flown to Washington on private jets and when questioned, seemed clueless on why they needed exactly $25 billion in bailouts, rather than, say, $26 or $24 billion. Luckily, they drove back to Washington a week later in hybrid vehicles with detailed plans asking for much more money, and that seemed to make everyone happier.
Except, perhaps for the freshly unemployed pilots and aircraft mechanics. Everything has a ripple these days, and people with definable skills are usually the first to notice.

In any case, the gathered politicians were very hard on the CEOs — beat them up, really. It was not a pretty sight. And perhaps they did have much to answer for.

Yet, strangely, there was very little self-examination among the committee members. Couldn't most of these problems, after all, be traced back to simple banking rules that Congress had failed to regulate? Hadn't the real trouble started not with car companies, but with banks making ridiculously risky real estate loans and then packaging them as "commodities" and selling them on the world market?

Yet, almost without blinking, our government had thrown hundreds of billions at the banking and insurance industries to cover their mistakes, no questions asked. This was probably a necessary step, as without a working credit market nothing in America — or the world — moves.

But where, in this circus of humiliation, were the banking CEOs and Wall Street geniuses who had brought this country to its knees — and were still taking huge salaries and bonuses and using their taxpayer billions to buy other banks? Why were they not sitting in the hot seat at a congressional hearing, being pilloried? Why had no arrests been made?

Influence?

Good lobbyists?

Collusion?

Listening to the radio, I couldn't tell. My adrenaline was running high, so I finally had to shut off the program before I had a heart attack.

To restore my equilibrium, I sat quietly in the Corvette for a while and looked around at the interior.

Wonderful car, this Corvette. One of the best I've ever driven. Fast and remarkably refined, a distillation of years and years of research, engineering know-how and just plain hard work by people who really are highly trained and take their jobs seriously.

I looked at the interior of the car, the seats, dash and steering wheel. Beautifully stitched leather, nicely formed metal and several large trim sections of glossy carbon fiber. I ran my hand over those pieces of carbon fiber on the dash and console. They were perfect.

Somewhere — maybe in Detroit or elsewhere in the Midwest — was a division of Chevrolet or an outside supplier where these sections of carbon fiber were produced. Somewhere there was a real shop where people got up in the morning, came to work and made these pieces. They knew how to mix and cure the chemicals, how to lay the fiber mats and how to form, trim and polish these parts. They knew how to make stuff.

Was it really possible that all these people were going to lose their jobs to the dazzling mixture of greed and incompetence displayed by our captains of finance? Those smart, high-flying professionals we'd entrusted to handle our earnings and savings?

When I was a kid, my dad had an epithet reserved for those he held in the lowest esteem. He called them "Worse than useless." Funny, but every time I read the papers or watch the news now, that phrase pops into my head.

But it's not a description I would apply to the folks who are losing their jobs around here. The ones who can actually design and build something useful. People who know how to weld and stitch and bolt things together, and have to stand on their feet eight hours a day to do it.

Here in Rock County, Wisconsin, our big Janesville GM plant closed this past December. The plant is about 25 miles from our house, and the economic spinoff of all those lost jobs has been quite sobering to see. People need to move, but they can't sell their houses. Restaurants are in a slump, shops of all kinds are closing. The car lots are quiet white deserts of snow.

Our local paper had a front-page story today about all the churches in the area that are holding special masses and services to pray for the unemployed, and to organize relief. There's a picture of a nice young family at a church service with their two children, ages 6 and 4, and the story said both parents recently lost their jobs. Now here's a religious retreat of a different order — one that really is being held in an industrial region, rather than on a scenic mountaintop.

Should these people be bailed out?

It's all right with me. And I hope by the time you read this, it will already have happened. At this moment, the debate still rages — and Chrysler has just shut down operations "for at least a month." The people who made the Viper in our comparison test are out of work.

Maybe our friends from the recently failed — but now charitably rescued — financial sector can help.

If not, they should at least stop talking about Darwin. It draws unwanted attention to their own sociological and biological fitness.
"The car is the closest thing we will ever create to something that is alive." - Sir William Lyons

Offline mmret

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2009, 12:07:59 pm »
Oh so its the BANKs fault.
Everything in life is relative.

Offline Erik

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2009, 12:11:25 pm »
Oh so its the BANKs fault.

In two major ways, yes.
1) stopped credit availability to the manufacturers.
2) Stopped credit availability to customers, which helped dry up car sales.

Offline safristi

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2009, 12:16:38 pm »
...woz there any MONK-eh! business wif tha TRAPPIST's TIMES......................contemplatable  if there woz...........a Viper @ vespers....get thee to a NUNNERY.................................


  maybe take the contemptable CEO's onna twisty run inna "DIABLO" >:D wif DAMN-ON HELL ............
THERE IS NO CURE FOR "LOTUS"......ONLY TREATMENT.....

Offline mmret

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2009, 12:34:22 pm »
Oh so its the BANKs fault.

In two major ways, yes.
1) stopped credit availability to the manufacturers.
2) Stopped credit availability to customers, which helped dry up car sales.

Not saying the banks did everything right, but you're proposing that the solution to fix the problems of a debt ridden company with debt ridden consumers is to give them more credit?

Hey I know how to fix drug addicts....

Offline safristi

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2009, 12:38:34 pm »
..FIX ME................FIX ME......FIX ME  .................. :banana: :bounce: :banana: :bounce:

Offline Erik

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2009, 01:33:01 pm »
Oh so its the BANKs fault.

In two major ways, yes.
1) stopped credit availability to the manufacturers.
2) Stopped credit availability to customers, which helped dry up car sales.

Not saying the banks did everything right, but you're proposing that the solution to fix the problems of a debt ridden company with debt ridden consumers is to give them more credit?

Hey I know how to fix drug addicts....

The banks did everything wrong. I mean, in a perfect world, there would be a lot of them behind bars now. It was not just mis-management. It was criminal activity.

GM was burning through cash, because they were effectively totally revamping their company. Started a decade ago and really got serious around 2005. All the product they have coming out is of good quality, as is seemingly Ford and Chrysler's new stuff. All those new designs did not start in the last 6 months.
Had the credit markets not collapsed, they would not have been going hat in hand to the government in December asking for cash. Early in the year, many people were predicting that 2008 would be the best year ever for car sales. Did not work out that way....

Hey, in january 2008, GM Canada showed a car sales increase of 45%!

In January 2008, GM was up in sales over 2% compared to 2007 while Toyota and Honda were down 2%. Actually, GM was about the only company showing growth.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 01:36:13 pm by Erik »

Offline mmret

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2009, 06:17:23 pm »


Bye bye. :)

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2009, 09:05:27 pm »
Sales growth when you LOSE $2500 on each car sold is not a positve.

Artificially pumping up dales numbers via fleet sales or massive dicounting (Family pricing anyone) is not a postive trend.

I don't underatnd the mind set. Everyone is mad at the banks. Rightly so. Everyone is furious and thinks the bailouts are "wrong". Yet the idea is that its wrong for the banks but since we did the WRONG thing for them we should also do the WRONG thing for the Car Compaines..its only fair?

Offline dougjp

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2009, 07:27:40 am »
Grossly biased article, much the same stuff regurgitated daily by the Detroit press, won't convert anybody's opinions elsewhere, including the majority who don't want another dime given to the 3. Amongst all the "broken links" that make up the "chain" of his argument saying its all the fault of the suits, there is one thing that stands out that IS the short term ANSWER. However predictably he's on his own predetermined "roll" by that time, so he ignores it!! - " Should these people be bailed out? " (referring to the working people making things for the car industry). Answer should have been " YES, and DIRECT to THEM AS PEOPLE ONLY, NEVER the 3"

A very accomplished writer though, so because of that, yes it is an "Interesting Column".
" A car can be a tool but it can also be so much more. It can be a heart-starter, it can be a drug, it can be a piece of art, it can stir your soul " ....Jeremy Clarkson

Offline Erik

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2009, 10:57:26 am »
Grossly biased article, much the same stuff regurgitated daily by the Detroit press, won't convert anybody's opinions elsewhere, including the majority who don't want another dime given to the 3. Amongst all the "broken links" that make up the "chain" of his argument saying its all the fault of the suits, there is one thing that stands out that IS the short term ANSWER. However predictably he's on his own predetermined "roll" by that time, so he ignores it!! - " Should these people be bailed out? " (referring to the working people making things for the car industry). Answer should have been " YES, and DIRECT to THEM AS PEOPLE ONLY, NEVER the 3"

A very accomplished writer though, so because of that, yes it is an "Interesting Column".

I guess by "biased" you mean caring for the well being of a people who make up a series of industries and the effect the closings  would have on them and their towns. By giving money to them, do you suggest just paying them to sit at home?
If the Big 3 fail, that will happen anyway.

Offline dougjp

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2009, 11:31:04 am »
Grossly biased article, much the same stuff regurgitated daily by the Detroit press, won't convert anybody's opinions elsewhere, including the majority who don't want another dime given to the 3. Amongst all the "broken links" that make up the "chain" of his argument saying its all the fault of the suits, there is one thing that stands out that IS the short term ANSWER. However predictably he's on his own predetermined "roll" by that time, so he ignores it!! - " Should these people be bailed out? " (referring to the working people making things for the car industry). Answer should have been " YES, and DIRECT to THEM AS PEOPLE ONLY, NEVER the 3"

A very accomplished writer though, so because of that, yes it is an "Interesting Column".

I guess by "biased" you mean caring for the well being of a people who make up a series of industries and the effect the closings  would have on them and their towns. By giving money to them, do you suggest just paying them to sit at home?
If the Big 3 fail, that will happen anyway.

Not exactly the right guess, but along those lines. Perhaps the best explanation is "You can pay me now, or pay me later". Throw away money now by giving to the 3, then later pay people directly, OR just pay people directly now which overall mean much less money wasted. It called dealing with a problem rather than throwing away money to sweep it under the rug for a later time when the problem is bigger.


Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2009, 11:37:06 am »
Grossly biased article, much the same stuff regurgitated daily by the Detroit press, won't convert anybody's opinions elsewhere, including the majority who don't want another dime given to the 3. Amongst all the "broken links" that make up the "chain" of his argument saying its all the fault of the suits, there is one thing that stands out that IS the short term ANSWER. However predictably he's on his own predetermined "roll" by that time, so he ignores it!! - " Should these people be bailed out? " (referring to the working people making things for the car industry). Answer should have been " YES, and DIRECT to THEM AS PEOPLE ONLY, NEVER the 3"

A very accomplished writer though, so because of that, yes it is an "Interesting Column".

I guess by "biased" you mean caring for the well being of a people who make up a series of industries and the effect the closings  would have on them and their towns. By giving money to them, do you suggest just paying them to sit at home?
If the Big 3 fail, that will happen anyway.


Nope don't pay them to stay home.

Instead of throwing money away on say Chrysler who will leave you paying those people to stay home in a year ANYWAYS take those billions and offer it as an incentive to companies who will have jobs still there in a year.

Offline Erik

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2009, 11:55:39 am »
Grossly biased article, much the same stuff regurgitated daily by the Detroit press, won't convert anybody's opinions elsewhere, including the majority who don't want another dime given to the 3. Amongst all the "broken links" that make up the "chain" of his argument saying its all the fault of the suits, there is one thing that stands out that IS the short term ANSWER. However predictably he's on his own predetermined "roll" by that time, so he ignores it!! - " Should these people be bailed out? " (referring to the working people making things for the car industry). Answer should have been " YES, and DIRECT to THEM AS PEOPLE ONLY, NEVER the 3"

A very accomplished writer though, so because of that, yes it is an "Interesting Column".

I guess by "biased" you mean caring for the well being of a people who make up a series of industries and the effect the closings  would have on them and their towns. By giving money to them, do you suggest just paying them to sit at home?
If the Big 3 fail, that will happen anyway.
Not exactly the right guess, but along those lines. Perhaps the best explanation is "You can pay me now, or pay me later". Throw away money now by giving to the 3, then later pay people directly, OR just pay people directly now which overall mean much less money wasted. It called dealing with a problem rather than throwing away money to sweep it under the rug for a later time when the problem is bigger.


Problem is that the US economy cannot afford to lose the money generated by the big three at this point. I mean, GM is arguably still the largest auto maker in the world (2007 results, as 2008 was anything but a normal year), combined with the other two has to be more than a half a trillion dollars in sales, plus all the ripple effect from that.

Offline sailor723

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2009, 01:04:44 pm »
The fact is a certain number of cars are going to be built and sold in North America every year (some years more than others) and a certain number of workers are going to be needed to build them. I really don't think it matters which companies sign their pay cheques.
My first ever GM ownership experience  can best be described as   "Fool me once...."

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2009, 04:27:38 pm »
The fact is a certain number of cars are going to be built and sold in North America every year (some years more than others) and a certain number of workers are going to be needed to build them. I really don't think it matters which companies sign their pay cheques.

I believe the phrase "it's just business" is used as an excuse so that you don't have to worry about the people...a concept Mr. Egan spoke of very well...and one we don't like to think about.

Do you think it matters to the folks in Trenton NS as to who signs their paycheques?

http://www.thestar.com/article/610351
If it flies, floats or f#%&s...rent it.

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2009, 04:40:37 pm »
Quote
Artificially pumping up dales numbers via fleet sales or massive dicounting (Family pricing anyone) is not a postive trend

They had to move metal because if they didn't, they would have no place to park the unsold units. GM is a VERY sick company; it may have moved some product but it still owes its creditors $28bn more than 90 days overdue.

GM will lose about half its capactity in the next 60 days. I say it will be three divisions.

Offline Erik

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2009, 07:52:59 pm »

I believe the phrase "it's just business" is used as an excuse so that you don't have to worry about the people...a concept Mr. Egan spoke of very well...and one we don't like to think about.

Do you think it matters to the folks in Trenton NS as to who signs their paycheques?

http://www.thestar.com/article/610351

This actually seems to be the outcome some of the residents of NS seem to be hoping for.

Maybe we should close down the Naval base in Halifax and let the Americans do it for us. They have enough ships already. I am sure they can do the job even better and more efficiently than we can. Doesn't matter who owns it anyway, as long as the service is available,right?


« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 07:57:49 pm by Erik »

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2009, 07:58:59 pm »
Quote from: Erik link=topic=61782.msg569889#msg 569889 date=1238457179

I believe the phrase "it's just business" is used as an excuse so that you don't have to worry about the people...a concept Mr. Egan spoke of very well...and one we don't like to think about.

Do you think it matters to the folks in Trenton NS as to who signs their paychecks?

http://www.thestar.com/article/610351

This actually seems to be the outcome the residents of NS seem to be hoping for.

Maybe we should close down the Naval base in Halifax and let the Americans do it for us. They have enough ships already. I am sure they can do the job even better and more efficiently than we can. Doesn't matter who owns it anyway, as long as the service is available,right?



That would go along with your own theory that the economies of Canada and US are just one economy anyways.

As a lifetime Nova Scotia resident while saddened at the job losses it was still better than the alternative of the debacle of Government involvement in keeping steel operations in Nova Scotia running past their expiry date.

Quote
The province assumed control of Sysco on Dec. 1, 1967, intending to keep it running for 12 months. But those 12 months turned into 395 months that have cost taxpayers in excess of $3 billion, which is more than a quarter of Nova Scotia debt.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/156.html

You know not of what you speak.

Offline Erik

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Re: Peter Egan and the Big Three: An Interesting Column
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2009, 08:12:11 pm »
Quote from: Erik link=topic=61782.msg569889#msg 569889 date=1238457179

I believe the phrase "it's just business" is used as an excuse so that you don't have to worry about the people...a concept Mr. Egan spoke of very well...and one we don't like to think about.

Do you think it matters to the folks in Trenton NS as to who signs their paychecks?

http://www.thestar.com/article/610351

This actually seems to be the outcome the residents of NS seem to be hoping for.

Maybe we should close down the Naval base in Halifax and let the Americans do it for us. They have enough ships already. I am sure they can do the job even better and more efficiently than we can. Doesn't matter who owns it anyway, as long as the service is available,right?



That would go along with your own theory that the economies of Canada and US are just one economy anyways.

As a lifetime Nova Scotia resident while saddened at the job losses it was still better than the alternative of the debacle of Government involvement in keeping steel operations in Nova Scotia running past their expiry date.

Quote
The province assumed control of Sysco on Dec. 1, 1967, intending to keep it running for 12 months. But those 12 months turned into 395 months that have cost taxpayers in excess of $3 billion, which is more than a quarter of Nova Scotia debt.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/156.html

You know not of what you speak.

Well, they ARE one economy. Have been for 45 years now. We lost that war ages ago. With over 80% of our exports going to the US, how could it be anything but. We are TOTALLY reliant on the US. If they were to ever close their border to us, we would be dead as a nation. We are totally reliant on the good will of the US people and government to support our currency and economy.

The military "battle" we lost even before that. Militarily we have value because of our support to the US in Nato and Norad. We can defend ourselves against pretty well no one. Quite sad, actually.

Really don't see you point about Sysco. I am sure there are residents of NS who care about keep jobs and a healthy economy in Canada and North America. Just don't seem to be many of them on this board.