Author Topic: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?  (Read 1445 times)

Offline tenpenny

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 3906
  • Carma: +5/-2
    • View Profile
Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« on: March 19, 2009, 12:22:30 pm »
Oh, where are barrie and artic this morning?

"British luxury carmaker Jaguar surged to the top of J.D. Power and Associates' closely watched vehicle dependability study this year, tying Buick for the No. 1 spot and dethroning Lexus for the first time since the Japanese luxury brand has been a part of the survey.

Lexus, Toyota Motor Corp.'s luxury brand, took second place in the study released Thursday, followed by Toyota's namesake brand, then Mercury, Infiniti and Acura."

Offline Oz

  • Drunk on Fuel
  • ****
  • Location: Klingon
  • Posts: 1354
  • Carma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2009, 01:52:45 pm »
um.. okay... ???

How much do you guys trust TD Power anyway?
Enlightenment.  The air smells sweeter.  Birds sing more cheerfully.  Sex is better.  Life is good with a manual transmission.  - GD, 2009

Offline UmroAyyar

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Canuckistan
  • Posts: 7168
  • Carma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2009, 02:04:10 pm »
um.. okay... ???

How much do you guys trust TD Power anyway?

Not a bit.

But J.D. Power, some people do put credence to their surveys. The 'Initial Quality' or 'Instant Gratification' kind are useless. The longer term version may have something in them.
(Corolla Upgraded --> (Camry Sold | (Intrepid Taken Out))) --> 1999 Mazda 626 LX 2.5V6

"since the masses are always eager to believe something, for their benefit nothing is so easy to arrange as facts."

¡ʇnɥs ɥʇnoɯ ɹnoʎ dǝǝʞ oʇ ǝɔuɐɥɔ ɐ ssıɯ ɹǝʌǝu

Offline Patate

  • Learner's Permit
  • *
  • Location: Boucherville, QC
  • Posts: 111
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2009, 02:05:10 pm »
um.. okay... ???

How much do you guys trust TD Power anyway?

I trust them alot more than Consumer Reports.

However..

They do not take into consideration that Buick-Jag-Lexus owners don't drive as much as a Dodge-Chevrolet or Ford driver owner.  Trucks get driven alot more than cars, so that's why "truck brands" don't get a high rating.  This is why the "more reliable" brands are luxury brands.. driven by elderly people, while truck brands and young brands (like Suzuki for example), are "less reliable".

Always take those results with a grain of salt: if the brands had new models at the time of the "survey" they will be less reliable, if the brands have customers that drive more miles per year, they will be shown as " less reliable".  

Buick IS known to be one of the most reliable car brand there is.  An Allure is on a reliable plateform, has a bulletproof engine and the transmission will go on forever.  I don't know why that car doesn't outsell the Camry because the automotive example of the ultra-reliable blandmobile is the Allure.  It is a little more expensive than the Toyota competitor, but it comes with a real engine on the CX base model.

Bottom line: these reliability and intial quality studies have lots of flaws.  While they do indicate a certain trend, every cars can be reliable or unreliable, depending on its use.  Certain cars are made to be driven softly and they'll go forever, while others have a pretty random reliability but are solide as a rock.  The yaris for example is a car that is made to be driven softly in city streets, while a Crown Vic is made to be beaten and will go on forever.  The yaris is probably more reliable but if you use both the same ways, the Ford wins.

Offline tenpenny

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 3906
  • Carma: +5/-2
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2009, 02:22:05 pm »
um.. okay... ???

How much do you guys trust TD Power anyway?

Me, I don't trust them at all.

But I can't wait for the barrie / artic show to start, I've even cooked popcorn!

Offline johngenx

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: A space inside my own head where there are only mountains and climbing days...
  • Posts: 10333
  • Carma: +62/-80
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2009, 02:26:28 pm »
J.D. Power's stuff is nothing but BS, and I've never put any stock in it.  They don't bother weighting problem areas (so, three rattles is worse reliability than one engine explosion) and they are little more than whores to the auto industry.  For years they peddled that "initial quality" crap that meant nothing, and now they have dozens of surveys and yada-yada that is garbage.

CR's methodology is better (weighting) and they don't take money from automakers.  Yes, CR missed the boat by trying to predict reliability based on previous models, but they admitted their goof and don't do it anymore.

According to CR, Buick is a winner.  Too bad most of the models are butt-ugly, expensive, and sold through GM dealers...

Overall, it's tough to buy a bad new car now.  Everyone's quality and reliability is way up, and that's one reason why Honda/Toyota/etc. are no longer miles out in terms of "above average."

Ford has been making some really well-made cars for some time now, and you'd expect that some of that would creep into Jag.  Here's hoping...
No place I'd rather be...

Offline gta_driver

  • Auto Obsessed
  • ***
  • Location: In a "have not" province
  • Posts: 726
  • Carma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2009, 02:29:47 pm »
The Jaguar result doesn't suprise me. During the last few years of Ford's stewardship of the brand, Ford kept fitting Mazda and Ford NA parts into the Jaguar line (especially the X-type, the first few years of that car model where a reliability disaster) in order to make the the cars more reliable and robust and it paid off.

I suspect the Buick's are reliable because they where built in the Oshawa harbor award winning car plant(for initial quality). The same plant that produced the Buick Century and Regal (another one of JD Power's reliability winners from the past).
Current Drives-->MB B-Class * Saab 95 SportCombi*Infiniti J30t
"I don't apologize for being rich."

Offline Squishy

  • Drunk on Fuel
  • ****
  • Location: Orillia, Ontario
  • Posts: 1539
  • Carma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The goggles, they do nothing!
    • View Profile
    • Ford Escape Forums
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2009, 02:48:52 pm »
I trust them alot more than Consumer Reports.

However..

They do not take into consideration that Buick-Jag-Lexus owners don't drive as much as a Dodge-Chevrolet or Ford driver owner.  Trucks get driven alot more than cars, so that's why "truck brands" don't get a high rating.  This is why the "more reliable" brands are luxury brands.. driven by elderly people, while truck brands and young brands (like Suzuki for example), are "less reliable".

Always take those results with a grain of salt: if the brands had new models at the time of the "survey" they will be less reliable, if the brands have customers that drive more miles per year, they will be shown as " less reliable". 

Buick IS known to be one of the most reliable car brand there is.  An Allure is on a reliable plateform, has a bulletproof engine and the transmission will go on forever.  I don't know why that car doesn't outsell the Camry because the automotive example of the ultra-reliable blandmobile is the Allure.  It is a little more expensive than the Toyota competitor, but it comes with a real engine on the CX base model.

Bottom line: these reliability and intial quality studies have lots of flaws.  While they do indicate a certain trend, every cars can be reliable or unreliable, depending on its use.  Certain cars are made to be driven softly and they'll go forever, while others have a pretty random reliability but are solide as a rock.  The yaris for example is a car that is made to be driven softly in city streets, while a Crown Vic is made to be beaten and will go on forever.  The yaris is probably more reliable but if you use both the same ways, the Ford wins.

Exactly.  Luxury brand owners are also less likely to voice their complaints, either because they can't be bothered or they don't want to admit their expensive purchase is crap.  Meanwhile unsatisfied Golf owners are all over the internets. ;D

It might mean more if comparing two vehicles with a similar target demographic, if you trust the methods of that publication.



The Garage:
1999 Ford Escort SE, 2001 Acura MDX, 2003 Mitsubishi Lancer ES, 2003 Ford Escape XLS

Offline johngenx

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: A space inside my own head where there are only mountains and climbing days...
  • Posts: 10333
  • Carma: +62/-80
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2009, 02:56:52 pm »
Exactly.  Luxury brand owners are also less likely to voice their complaints, either because they can't be bothered or they don't want to admit their expensive purchase is crap.

Mercedes S-Class models finished poorly when the sample sizes were sufficient to report.  Most S-Class owners I know are not shy about bitching...

Offline airbalancer

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Cobourg Ontario
  • Posts: 15975
  • Carma: +92/-89
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2000 BMW 323, 2010 Toyota Prius, 2011Chevy Silverado LTZ
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 03:47:33 pm »
They do not take into consideration that Buick-Jag-Lexus owners don't drive as much as a Dodge-Chevrolet or Ford driver owner.  Trucks get driven alot more than cars, so that's why "truck brands" don't get a high rating.  This is why the "more reliable" brands are luxury brands.. driven by elderly people, while truck brands and young brands (like Suzuki for example), are "less reliable".

With all the km's I have put on my trucks, they have very reliable, only once did I had to get it towed
Dead battery, probably had to many things plug into the 12v over the weekend ;D

Offline Patate

  • Learner's Permit
  • *
  • Location: Boucherville, QC
  • Posts: 111
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 04:23:30 pm »
They do not take into consideration that Buick-Jag-Lexus owners don't drive as much as a Dodge-Chevrolet or Ford driver owner.  Trucks get driven alot more than cars, so that's why "truck brands" don't get a high rating.  This is why the "more reliable" brands are luxury brands.. driven by elderly people, while truck brands and young brands (like Suzuki for example), are "less reliable".

With all the km's I have put on my trucks, they have very reliable, only once did I had to get it towed
Dead battery, probably had to many things plug into the 12v over the weekend ;D

when I said "less reliable" i was referring to the conclusion of the surveys.  GMC, Chevy trucks, Ford trucks and Doge trucks drivers put up lots of KMs and they are sometimes while towing or going off-road, so it is only normal to assume that the truck will have more problems than a car driving in the city.

Offline Snowman

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Oakville
  • Posts: 21600
  • Carma: +45/-34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2012 Audi TT-RS. 2011 Toyota Venza AWD. 2004 Honda S2000
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 09:52:36 pm »
J.D. Power's stuff is nothing but BS, and I've never put any stock in it.  They don't bother weighting problem areas (so, three rattles is worse reliability than one engine explosion) and they are little more than whores to the auto industry.  For years they peddled that "initial quality" crap that meant nothing, and now they have dozens of surveys and yada-yada that is garbage.

CR's methodology is better (weighting) and they don't take money from automakers.  Yes, CR missed the boat by trying to predict reliability based on previous models, but they admitted their goof and don't do it anymore.

According to CR, Buick is a winner.  Too bad most of the models are butt-ugly, expensive, and sold through GM dealers...

Overall, it's tough to buy a bad new car now.  Everyone's quality and reliability is way up, and that's one reason why Honda/Toyota/etc. are no longer miles out in terms of "above average."

Ford has been making some really well-made cars for some time now, and you'd expect that some of that would creep into Jag.  Here's hoping...


Well said John  :thumbup: :thumbup:

Offline Cortina

  • Drunk on Fuel
  • ****
  • Location: SW Ontario
  • Posts: 1496
  • Carma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 10:33:18 pm »
Jags have improved a lot since they basically fords underneath.   :)

Offline barrie1

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: London Ont Canada
  • Posts: 14832
  • Carma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2009, 10:49:41 pm »
I have owned a Jag and they could only get better as it was a terrible car. Everything on it was completely ridiculous for part prices. The small rotor in the Dist was almost $200. and the Dist Cap was $212. by itself. The V12 was and is currently a Boat Anchor out of this car as I put a Chevie small block in it. They virtually bolt right in with custom front mounts as the rear mounts are the same. Jag has used the GM Turbo trannies since around the mid 50's in their auto's. At least with the Chevie in it I could drive it every day as it was dependable then. Mine was a XJ12L model in the Dark Blue colour.  :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 01:15:49 am by barrie1 »

Offline Erik

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Location: Torana
  • Posts: 3151
  • Carma: +14/-191
    • View Profile
Re: Buick and Jag beat out Lexus?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2009, 11:15:33 pm »
um.. okay... ???

How much do you guys trust TD Power anyway?

Around here, it seems to depend if they are giving the good rating to a Domestic or a Japanese car.... :)
"The car is the closest thing we will ever create to something that is alive." - Sir William Lyons