Chevrolet Uplander -- same but slightly changed topic from the truck-suv forum

[ticu]

The dealers are selling the 2009 model way under the MSRP. Is there a catch with this low price? How reliable are these Chevy models?
(Asked this question (slightly changed) on the "truck-suv forum" and only got 2 replies.)

[airbalancer]

Drove by a dealer and they had $14,999 on the side
The only catch it is a cash price. I believe it is the last year for them
I think most of the bugs are out of them now.

If you need something that size go for it.
There is a lot of them in this area

http://chevroletforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=31&page=1&pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0d6601/

[Honda Owner]

It is pretty hard to go wrong at this price but remember you are going to be buying a GM vehicle and having it serviced at a GM dealer, assuming there are any GM dealers in the near future. I would also recommend buying the best General Motors Protection Plan you can get for the car if you are planning to keep it after the warranty expires. Again that is assuming that there will be a GM this time next year and/or what replaces the present GM will honour the warranties of the old GM. This is still very up in the air.

Also realise your resale value will be practically nothing since it is a lame duck model from a lame duck company. But again, for $15k you really can't go wrong and any independent shop can fix the thing since it is about as high tech and an anvil.

[Marko]

any independent shop can fix the thing since it is about as high tech and an anvil.

What makes the Uplander lower tech than other modern minivans?

[Hank Horsey]

Ticu, according to Consumer Reports the reliability is pretty bad. It improved to merely sub-par in the 2005 model year, but they still reported a lot of engine cooling problems.

Mind you, the stats end in 05, which probably means they didn't sell enough of them in the US to provide enough data for their stats. So it's possible that GM fixed the problems, but if they couldn't sell the model in the US, I doubt they bothered.



 

[Marko]

How could it have improved in 2005 when that was the first year of the Uplander?

Besides, all 2007 and newer Uplanders have the new 3.9L LZ9 engine.

[2hondas1BMW]

Get a Caravan instead...

[Honda Owner]

What makes the Uplander lower tech than other modern minivans?

A pushrod V-6 that has its roots in the Chevrolet Citation that was introduced in 1979 as a 1980 model. A 4 speed auto that doesn't have a logic program. An antiquated electrical system that does not use digital bus architecture. Drum brakes in the rear. An outdated seating layout.

Besides, all 2007 and newer Uplanders have the new 3.9L LZ9 engine.

This is the same basic engine that I have mentioned above except there is now variable valve timing.

These cars are cheapo to the extreme. They do not age well. Things break and fall off. The quality of the plastics is awful. The Caravan is a much better vehicle for the money and is actually worth the extra to get into it.

Anything else?

[Erik]

Just curious to know if anyone on here has actually owned one.

[Honda Owner]

Just curious to know if anyone on here has actually owned one.

I haven't but I saw TONS of them come in for warranty work when I worked at a GM dealer.

[initial_D]

At $15,000, that is the price of a subcompact, very good value for the money.

A sales Rep for our area had an Outlander for 2 years, and the odometer had over 80,000 Km on it, he told me it was relatively trouble free. I do suspect there will be lotsa parts need replacement after 3 to 4 years of ownership.

[Marko]

A pushrod V-6 that has its roots in the Chevrolet Citation that was introduced in 1979 as a 1980 model.

I don't recall the Chevy Citation having 240 hp. Lots of modern engines have ancient origins, for example the Toyota R engines used as late as the 90's were based on designs from the 50's. That doesn't make them 50's technology.

A 4 speed auto that doesn't have a logic program.

What do you mean by logic program, do you mean memorization of driver habits?

An antiquated electrical system that does not use digital bus architecture.

What kind of architecture does it have if not digital, analog? All modern engines have some degree of digitilization.

Drum brakes in the rear.

Doesn't need discs, it's a minivan. Until relatively recently even some sports cars had drums in the rear.

An outdated seating layout.

How is the seating layout outdated? It has the same 2+2+3 layout as any other modern minivan.

This is the same basic engine that I have mentioned above except there is now variable valve timing.

And 240 hp. There is nothing wrong with this engine. It powers many other cars, even some that are considered high performance cars like the G6 GTP or the Monte Carlo.

[Marko]

I found an article about the 3.9 LZ9 engine with some more info about it:

POPULAR MECHANICS AWARDS GM 3.9 V-6 FOR BREAKTHROUGH TECHNOLOGY

New York - General Motors new 3.9-liter V-6 has been recognized for ground-breaking technology by the editors of POPULAR MECHANICS in the publication�s first POPULAR MECHANICS Breakthrough Awards. The announcement was made today at the American Museum of Natural History and will be featured in the October issue of POPULAR MECHANICS, on newsstands nationwide October 11, 2005.

The POPULAR MECHANICS Breakthrough Awards recognize ten individuals and teams, including one winner of the Breakthrough Leadership Award, that are helping to improve lives and expand possibilities in the realms of science, technology and exploration. Additionally, POPULAR MECHANICS highlighted a separate group of ten consumer products that represent milestones in design and engineering.

The 3.9 V-6 has been awarded for the innovative adaptation of variable valve timing, an industry first for overhead valve engines.

General Motors keeps finding ways to advance overhead valve engines and the 3.9-liter V-6 used in the Impala reaches new levels, said James Meigs, editor-in-chief, POPULAR MECHANICS. For their continued success and innovation, we�re proud to recognize GM with a 2006 Breakthrough Award.

The 3.9 is part of an all-new family of advanced overhead valve, 60-degree V-6 engines. The engine is designed new from the block up and in addition to variable valve timing, incorporates a host of advanced, premium features, including a variable intake manifold, piston-cooling oil squirters, and an advanced 32-bit engine controller.

The breakthrough development of variable valve timing for the 3.9 demonstrates the continued relevance of the elegant overhead valve engine design, said Dr. Gary Horvat, assistant chief engineer, V-6 engines. We�re honored that the editorial team at POPULAR MECHANICS recognize the significance of this technology.

The variable valve timing system incorporates a vane-type camshaft phaser that changes the angular orientation of the camshaft, thereby adjusting the timing of the intake and exhaust valves to optimize performance and economy, and helping lower emissions. Within its range of operation, it offers infinitely variable valve timing in relation to the crankshaft. The cam phasing creates �dual equal� valve timing adjustments. In other words, the intake valves and exhaust valves are varied at the same time and at the same rate.

The award-winning, 240-horsepower 3.9 V-6 is available in the 2006 Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo, Malibu SS, Malibu Maxx SS and Uplander; Pontiac G6 GTP and SV6; Buick Terraza; and Saturn Relay.

Note the paragraph that states it's an all-new engine designed from the block up. There is nothing less advanced about this engine than the engine in the Caravan or the Odyssey or any other modern minivan.

[Honda Owner]

All modern engines have some degree of digitilization.

I wasn't talking about the motor. The rest of the wiring harness is antique and diagnosing electrical problems an expensive and time consuming process.

But hey, if you like the Uplander, go buy one.

[tpl]

V6 engines SHOULD be 60 degrees ( or 120 )

[Squishy]

A pushrod V-6 that has its roots in the Chevrolet Citation that was introduced in 1979 as a 1980 model.

Nothing wrong with buying a pushrod.  Small chains that hardly ever go bad.  Tuned for torque way down low.  Small overall size.  What's not to like?

A 4 speed auto that doesn't have a logic program.

That's actually a good thing if you have several drivers in the family.  Several people have complained to me that their car feels "sluggish" after the wife drives it, as the transmission has adjusted the shift points beyond what they were used to.

An antiquated electrical system that does not use digital bus architecture.

That's one I can agree with.  GM electricals are often weak and one of the early things to fail.  Not so bad if you are good with circuits and electronics, but a pain in the arse if you bring it to a mechanic every time.

Drum brakes in the rear.

Why would a minivan need disc brakes?  Drums have more braking power than discs due to increase area and self-servo function.  The disadvantage is weight and being more susceptible to fade - things you worry about on a performance vehicle.  Disc brakes in the rear tend to get dirty and rusty and then wear the pads down faster than the fronts, and that catches many owners off guard if they are used to the life span of drum brake shoes.  If you live in the mountains of BC, then maybe you would benefit from rear discs.

These cars are cheapo to the extreme. They do not age well. Things break and fall off. The quality of the plastics is awful. The Caravan is a much better vehicle for the money and is actually worth the extra to get into it.

Aside from not retaining resale value, those points are actually good for the intended purpose of a minivan.  I have yet to see one minivan used while raising a family where the interior hasn't fallen apart.  I wouldn't want kids driving their hot wheels across a plush leatherette dash or putting their sneakers against a wood grain vent surround.

[PJungnitsch]

CR's owner satisfaction rating for the Uplander is legendarily bad, absolute bottom AFAIK.

Caravan is up substantially. Some interesting info on buying those low advertised deals (Chrysler, but still should apply to GM) here:

1) Before running off to a dealer based on the "advertised price", read the fine print. I've got a few people bring me "advertised price" of $15K or whatever, the fine print will usually read something like "Qualified employee price with E.R Bonus of $2600" , or "Plus Admin, PDE, Loyaty, DME, Registration etc" But no dollar amount beside it. So what does that mean? Basically a dealer can show you a selling price of $12,000 for a new 2009 Grand Caravan, but then charge you $5000 for PDI for example.

So when shopping around, you can't compare "advertise price" to another dealer's "advertise price".

Here are some facts: Every Chrysler dealer has the exact same invoice as the next one. We all get it from the same factory. Every factory incentive/rebate is the same. If you get a Carcost/APA report, then take it to a dealer on one end of the GTA, and ask to see their invoice, it'll be the same and the same result will be at another dealer on the other side of the GTA.

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/s...655016&page=20

Read post # 291 and # 292

This morning we were shown another Chrysler dealer's Ad from the Etobicoke area, full page, colour very nice looking $14,995 across the middle. The fine print stated something along the lines of price of vehicle is correct assuming accessories installed as well. So basically they can sell it for $14,995 and give you rubber mats for $3000 which then brings the price back up again.

The one thing that gives me an advantage over another dealer, is I got some Save the Freight units and coupons, so with the coupons, I could technically sell it for under cost and still break even.

2) If financing make sure the payments you're quoted is all fees/taxes in. I love how some dealers will advertised a low payment like say $120, then when you go to sign you find out its $120 before GST/PST. Or they can do $120 but its with $3000 down etc.

3) For cash, make sure that they aren't just quoting you an Employee price with E.R Bonus $2600, just because they know you're going to walk out and compare it at another dealer assuming you're just a retail customer, not an affiliate etc.

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=683869&page=6

[Cord]

1) Before running off to a dealer based on the "advertised price", read the fine print.

It depends where you are. In Alberta advertised prices in print media are required by law to include everything but tax.

[kardood69]

I have an 06 Montana SV6, with about 80K on it right now.   Aside from oil changes and new pads, I had a strut bushing replaced, and a steering column (under warranty).

I think they are actually pretty good.  For $15K, I would say it's a good deal.   

A Sienna or Odyssey will hold their value better, but you got to look at it in absolute terms as well.  i.e after 3 years if the Odyssey depreciates 30%, that's 10K.  If the Uplander drops 50%, that's 7.5K.   Plus, you will have less interest charges with the GM (given smaller principle, and likely lower interest rate). 

There's disks all around btw, at least on the Pontiac.



 

[ticu]

Actually I'm buying the car so ... good luck to myself!

The cash price (I won't take GM financing -- too expansive) with all extra-crap included (freight, tax, fees, body repairs for the leased car I am returning) is a little less than 21k which is still less than I would have paid for my leased Optra if I deceided to buy it at the end of lease.

That CR graph is not too bad though: it shows 30% of Uplander owners whould still buy it again. It also shows that  between 30% and 60% of other-make-model van owners won't re-buy their cars.

So, God help!