CTC Review: 2009 Hyundai Genesis Sedan

[Cortina]

This going to make a great used buy in the future. This cars will be a steal on dealers lot in 5 years. if the Genesis turns out to be as good as a Toyota or Honda.

[rrocket]

My RWD Supra is the first RWD car I've ever put away for the winter.  LIke Wing says, if you know how to drive, they are a hoot in the winter!  RWD FTW!

As far as the Genesis goes...I was at the Detroit AutoShow and would say the Genesis display was among the busiest attended there.  There were LOTS of people checking it out...Easily one of the most popular displays there.  Plenty of interest for this car..

[PMREdmonton]

I agree with many others here about the error of the omission of an AWD version for much of the Northern US and virtually all of Canada.  Most of of us have grown up with FWD cars and are not used to the different handling on RWD cars and that is multiply compounded in the winter.  I would not consider buying a RWD car because even if I could get used to the handling differences in the winter, my wife likely would not and we occasionally have to drive each others vehicles.

Hopefully we'll get an AWD version some time in the future.  They already have that capability in the Tuscon, Santa Fe and Veracruz.

[TopGun]

...
there's no way to get around the fact that you'll either lose control of the rear of the car, or you won't be going very fast.
...

IMO the loss of that sensation causes over-confidence and over-driving in "bad" conditions.

Checking out the Genesis display at Detroit with the rocket-man, I too was impressed with the Genesis sedan for what it is...a non-sporty sedan.

I was much less impressed with the coupe...it felt very cheap inside, and it felt a LOT to me like a big Tiburon.

[2hondas1BMW]

...
there's no way to get around the fact that you'll either lose control of the rear of the car, or you won't be going very fast.
...

IMO the loss of that sensation causes over-confidence and over-driving in "bad" conditions.

Checking out the Genesis display at Detroit with the rocket-man, I too was impressed with the Genesis sedan for what it is...a non-sporty sedan.

I was much less impressed with the coupe...it felt very cheap inside, and it felt a LOT to me like a big Tiburon.

Well for the rumored pricing...you can't expect everything to be good.

[rrocket]

Checking out the Genesis display at Detroit with the rocket-man, I too was impressed with the Genesis sedan for what it is...a non-sporty sedan.

Why is there the continued need to point out that this isn't the sportiest sedan on the market?  It compete with BMW, MB and Lexus on quality, content and refinement,...and kills them on price.  I don't recall Hyundai marketing this as a sporty anything......or a car that competes with the aforementioned in sporty handling.

It would be like if I was shopping for a uber luxury car and faulted the BMW for having too taut a suspension for a pure luxury car...

Perhaps Wing can add more to this....

This is what Motor Trend said vs. the BMW...

On the flip side, the Genesis is more serene and relaxed for everyday duties, able to eschew the Bimmer's busy, stiff ride and sometimes nervous road manners. This is not to say the Hyundai doesn't relish a twisty road. With a 53/47 front/rear weight distribution, the Genesis delivers excellent balance and impressive grip (certainly considering it doesn't wear summer tires), circling the figure eight in 27.4 seconds at 0.64 g and the skidpad at 0.87 g. The former is 0.3 second behind that of the Benz but the latter is 0.05 g superior, notable in light of the E's more optimal weight distribution (51/49) and wider, staggered tires (245 front, 265 rear)

[Brigitte]

LIke Wing says, if you know how to drive, they are a hoot in the winter!  RWD FTW!

I am inclined to agree here.  Once you (thoroughly) know how your car behaves in any circumstance, you drive with more confidence.  Heck, I learned to drive on RWD with stick, and figured things out over the subsequent very snowy winters that followed (I lived in central Quebec).  I was under 20 years old, and understood quickly and safely that snow on the ground meant a different way of driving and reacting to sudden braking situations and, above all else, NOT panicking if the back end went out.  I did not have the benefit of tranny nannies like ABS, LSD, ESC or AWD.

Now, with Miss Jetta, I truly wish she was a little more unruly in the snow sometimes.  I miss that active, I-am-one-with-the-car-and-we're-a-team challenge of getting where you want to go.  Although... I will admit to pushing her to spin when there's no one around so I can get the thrill of reigning her in. 

[rrocket]

Admit it....every who has RWD is drifting the car within 10 seconds of hitting the snow covered road....I'm guilty!! 

[Baron von Raschke]

LIke Wing says, if you know how to drive, they are a hoot in the winter!  RWD FTW!

above all else, NOT panicking if the back end went out. 

I've driven FWD most of my life and the only one time I drove a RWD in the snow I did the spinarama....luckily there were no other cars around and I spun harmlessly down the centre of the road.

When the back starts to kick out, what's the best course of action besides reciting the Lord's prayer?

[vdk]

Countersteer and step on it

[rrocket]

Turn into the spin...that is to say...if the left end is starting to come around on you, turn the wheel left....vice versa for right.

Also, you might not want to lift off the accelerator abruptly, since that will unload the back end and you may lose any traction you had....

[TopGun]

Here's where the counter-steering instinct screws you up...

• When an aircraft's wing stalls, it can bank left or right.
• Let's say it banks to the left
• A natural reaction if you drive a RWD car is to counter steer with the yoke
• This will likely result in a spin...hold on to your lunch.
• Why?  Countersteering right using the yoke asks the wing with perilously little lift (the left wing in this case) to lift more...further stalling the wing.

Here's what a spin looks like from the cockpit...nice recovery too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybznDrT2_Yg

The buzzer you hear is the stall warning.

[rrocket]

Here's where the counter-steering instinct screws you up...

So does this mean we should REALLY be frightened if we go for a flight with you...in case you get "screwed up" 

[kha]

When the back starts to kick out, what's the best course of action besides reciting the Lord's prayer?

There are lot of contradicting advices regarding this issue.  Ease off the gas, give it more gas, steer into the turn, counter steer, etc.  I think it all depends on WHY your car is oversteering.  I'm not a professional, but this is what I learned from autocrossing.  Also, most of my experience is from racing on dry pavement, not snow.

If the back is sliding out because you gave it too much gas, it's called power oversteer.  This is what most people are worried about in a rwd car.  In this case, the car oversteers because the rear wheels lost traction from too much power.  What I do in this case is simply reduce the gas and let the rear wheels regain traction.  In the snow, the rear may take some time to settle.

If the back is sliding out because you're going around the corner too fast, decrease the steering angle slightly and maintain the same amount of gas, or apply slightly more gas.  When you're accelerating, the weight transfers to the rear, reducing the grip in front and increase the grip at the back.  What you DON'T want to do is lift off the gas or step on the brakes.  This transfers weight to the front wheels, giving it more grip and worsens the oversteer.  This is called lift-off oversteer, which can happen in any car, fwd, rwd, awd, 4wd etc.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can still understeer in a rwd car.  In fact, most cars, even rwd, comes from the factory with an understeer bias.  It simply means that if you go around a corner too fast, the front tire will lose traction before the rear.  This is considered safer for most people for the reasons described above.  If the car starts to slide, most people react by lifting off the gas or by hitting the brakes.  This is the correct response if the car was understeering, since it gives more grip to the front tires and reduces understeer.  However, if the car was oversteering and you lift off the gas, well, you will just oversteer even more and spin.

So, the bottom line is that you need to know why your car is sliding.  This requires you to know how YOUR car behaves at the limit.  The best thing is to push your car to the limit in a safe, controlled environment (i.e.  at a race track or an empty parking lot).  Learn how your car feels when it's understeering, oversteering, and know why it's doing whatever it's doing.  And learn how it responds to various inputs, like more gas, less gas, lifting, brakes, changes in steering angle etc.  I can push my car to the limit and not get in trouble because I know eactly what it's doing and how it will respond.  However, if I got into any of your cars, I wouldn't know what to do.

[quadzilla]

I learned how to drive RWD cars by working for Mother's Pizza (Ya I'm that old). They had a Mustang hatchback 4 cyl and the auto trans was locked at drive + a Pony that we could actually shift the auto trans. Say what you will about the Pony but when the roads were wet/snow this is the car we would choose as it was so much fun to toss around.

Most days I was pretty good but there were the times where I got the tail out too far and couldn't recover. Now you know why all your toppings were to one side when your pizza got delivered. 

One of the managers had a Corolla and he was amazing at drifting that thing around the parking lot. Remember, this was a long time ago when Toyota but the drive wheels in the back.

[Railton]

Here's where the counter-steering instinct screws you up...

So does this mean we should REALLY be frightened if we go for a flight with you...in case you get "screwed up" 

Only be frightened if he hasn't recovered after seven full revolutions!
Railton

[wing]

None of this "steer into the skid" that's to much thinking.  Look where you want to go and steer there, problem solved.

As kha said, throttle oversteer, SLIGHTLY reduce throttle, momentum oversteer, apply gas and go.    Once you have experienced it a few times it's a blast to dance the car, I'm routinely sideways in my truck because I feel like doing it and enjoy catching, I'm never out of control or anywhere near my limit when I do it on the street.

[Shnak]

When the back starts to kick out, what's the best course of action besides reciting the Lord's prayer?

There are lot of contradicting advices regarding this issue.  Ease off the gas, give it more gas, steer into the turn, counter steer, etc.  I think it all depends on WHY your car is oversteering.  I'm not a professional, but this is what I learned from autocrossing.  Also, most of my experience is from racing on dry pavement, not snow.

If the back is sliding out because you gave it too much gas, it's called power oversteer.  This is what most people are worried about in a rwd car.  In this case, the car oversteers because the rear wheels lost traction from too much power.  What I do in this case is simply reduce the gas and let the rear wheels regain traction.  In the snow, the rear may take some time to settle.

If the back is sliding out because you're going around the corner too fast, decrease the steering angle slightly and maintain the same amount of gas, or apply slightly more gas.  When you're accelerating, the weight transfers to the rear, reducing the grip in front and increase the grip at the back.  What you DON'T want to do is lift off the gas or step on the brakes.  This transfers weight to the front wheels, giving it more grip and worsens the oversteer.  This is called lift-off oversteer, which can happen in any car, fwd, rwd, awd, 4wd etc.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can still understeer in a rwd car.  In fact, most cars, even rwd, comes from the factory with an understeer bias.  It simply means that if you go around a corner too fast, the front tire will lose traction before the rear.  This is considered safer for most people for the reasons described above.  If the car starts to slide, most people react by lifting off the gas or by hitting the brakes.  This is the correct response if the car was understeering, since it gives more grip to the front tires and reduces understeer.  However, if the car was oversteering and you lift off the gas, well, you will just oversteer even more and spin.

So, the bottom line is that you need to know why your car is sliding.  This requires you to know how YOUR car behaves at the limit.  The best thing is to push your car to the limit in a safe, controlled environment (i.e.  at a race track or an empty parking lot).  Learn how your car feels when it's understeering, oversteering, and know why it's doing whatever it's doing.  And learn how it responds to various inputs, like more gas, less gas, lifting, brakes, changes in steering angle etc.  I can push my car to the limit and not get in trouble because I know eactly what it's doing and how it will respond.  However, if I got into any of your cars, I wouldn't know what to do.

The fact that it took you like 1000 words to explain how to handle a RWD car in the snow proves my point...

I learned how to drive on a 5-speed Ford Ranger 4-cyl 2wd little truck, and I don't think there's worse for driving in the winter. We'd put a ton of sand in the back, and it still didn't help all that much. I got stuck plenty of times, and I could barely drive 20kph sometimes. But boy was it fun! So yeah, RWD is run, no doubt about that. But in the middle of the traffic full of angry people that want to get to work that'll cut you left and right if you're too slow, a RWD is hell.

I seriously doubt I'll ever purchase a vehicle that is not AWD for the rest of my life. Once you've driven one in the snow, you just can't go back! When I'm driving around in my Sportage in residential areas and parking lots, I can't help but laugh inside at everyone stuck in their driveways or in the plow leftovers. (For the record, after I'm done laughing inside, I'll often stop and help out people that are stuck when I can)

For getting around during the winter, nothing beats an AWD vehicle with decent ground clearance. If we only had a few weeks of winter instead of 5-6 month around here, then maybe I could live with an RWD vehicle and 'tough it out', but when you live where there's snow on the ground most of the time, there's no question in my mind that AWD is the way to go.

[wing]

Actually he was explaining how to handle any car in the snow.

I think you seriously need to take a driving course.  You don't seem to understand how vehicle dynamics work.  RWD drive cars DO NOT oversteer more than FWD or AWD cars, they only do so if you are pedal happy, turning and driving straight are the same in a RWD car as a FWD or AWD car, it's accelerating where you need to know your limits of traction and be smooth on the throttle.  FWD cars can oversteer just as easily as RWD cars when turning.

There is no convincing you, but obviously thousands of people that drive mercs and bmw's all winter long seem to have no issues -- and I see many of them in the Ottawa area, oh and don't forget all the pickup trucks, most of them are RWD or manual switching to 4x4 mode they are not full time AWD. 

[Shnak]

RWD drive cars DO NOT oversteer more than FWD or AWD cars, they only do so if you are pedal happy, turning and driving straight are the same in a RWD car as a FWD or AWD car, it's accelerating where you need to know your limits of traction and be smooth on the throttle.  FWD cars can oversteer just as easily as RWD cars when turning.

By listening to you, it's a wonder we're not all driving RWD vehicles and that AWD and 4WD vehicles even exist!!! Maybe you should write a blog/article that explains how RWD is good in winter driving for those 95% of the driving population that only cares about getting from point A to point B.

I'm obviously not the best driver out there, but I can manage with a RWD vehicle... I'm just not sure why I'd want to.  Sure, it can be done, and it's fun... but that's not what I'm looking for in a daily commute vehicle... And besides, when I want fun, all I have to do is engage 4x4 and disengage ESC on my AWD vehicle... There's a LOT more fun to be had that way than with a RWD IMO...