Author Topic: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up  (Read 4029 times)

Offline Lexusfreak

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I thought many folks here might find this to be a big help... From the Toronto Star 'Wheels' section (Written by Tire Guru John Mahler), Feb 16th, 2008...


"Now, some readers rightly ask, well, what's the difference between snow tires and winter tires? Good question.


For the longest time, there were very few standards in the tire industry. Any company could label any tire whatever it wanted and they did. The "M&S" on a sidewall meant zilch. And it still means zilch.

Technically, if a tire has any groove, it can be marked M&S. That means you could take a Formula 1 rain tire and put M&S on it because it has grooves. So the consumer should ignore all M&S signage.

Early snow tires carried this M&S marking, but competition actually made the companies create tires that did work in snow.

Snow traction depends on several things: rubber flexibility, lots of biting edges and wide grooves. So that's what snow tires looked like: big chunky blocks with square edges and wide grooves all made out of rubber compounds that stayed soft in below freezing temperatures.

These snow tires had decent snow traction, but their Achilles heel was pavement. But square-edged blocks surrounded by wide grooves tend to squirm a lot. So driving down the highway, the tires wandered. Under panic braking, they felt unstable.

Since tread squirm causes heat and heat causes tire degradation, they wore quickly. And last, they were noisy.

Over time this basic model of the snow tire was improved so noise got less, squirm was reduced, wear improved and traction was not diminished.

Tire companies started using more complex rubber mixtures that had less squirm and through computer modelling, found that the tread blocks did not have to be big, square, ugly ridges.

The tire engineers started to refer to the best of these as "winter tires," to help differentiate them from their noisy, squirmy relatives. The winter tires were dramatically better on pavement than the snow tires.

Then worldwide standards started to be adopted. Transport Canada bought into this and so the new winter tire standard was set. Any tire that passes, gets to have the winter tire logo: a snowflake inside a mountain peak, on the side wall.

Another upside of standards was it inspired the tire engineers to make the best of the worst conditions. Bridgestone came up with the multi-cell compound Blizzak, an amazing tire on ice, Yokohama upped the ante with their IG-10, while other companies such as Goodyear and Toyo added grit into the rubber mixture. Michelin, as usual, went its own way and produced the X-Ice, a snow and ice tire.

Of course all this research and technology has improved snow tires, too. So with a snow tire, you still get chunky tread, a bit less stability on the highway and more noise, but you do get snow traction.

With a winter tire, you get quieter ride, very little squirm, less noise than some all-season tires, good pavement ride and grip, long wear characteristics, and – last but not least – good ice and snow traction.

Practical examples from real life: in the Bridgestone Firestone family, the Bridgestone Blizzak is the winter tire, the Firestone Winter Force is the snowtire; in the Michelin/BFG/Uniroyal family, the Michelin X-Ice is the winter tire, and the BFGoodrich Winter Slalom is a snowtire; in the Pirelli world, the Snowsport is a winter tire and the Winter Carving is a snow tire.

So to legislate or not to legislate? Several readers pointed out my omission of school buses in my list of vehicles that should be mandated to have winter tires. Good idea. Car rental companies definitely should be included in a law.

Studs, I'm less crazy about. On ice and hard-packed snow, the extra grip is amazing. On pavement, where most of driving is done, they can sometimes make stopping more dangerous and they do eat up asphalt. In Southern Ontario, we have so little pavement left to eat. All the 400-series of highways look like ads for "instant pothole patch."

Instead of making winter tires mandatory, why doesn't the provincial government allow you to write off the cost over four years on your tax return. A carrot is always better than a stick, plus it would help stimulate our retail sales in Ontario.

But what the hey, what do I know?

I do know there are some tires out there that I like to call all-weather (I'm leaving the "season" word to Vivaldi and Glazunov).

These tires can run in the snow and enjoy a day at the beach in July ....but Mr. Editor is tapping on my shoulder. It seems I'm writing a column not a book. So we'll talk about those another day".
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Offline Angry Chicken

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 08:10:51 am »
I agree with what he says to a point.  I lack real credentials when it comes to tires except my voracious reading and well...geekiness...when it comes to those round, black rim protectors that we call tires.  I've driven on winter/snow tires for two decades.

I disagree on a simple point:  winter tires are simply tires that work across a variety of winter conditions including:
  - bare pavement
  - ice
  - snow
...all while maintaining their compliance and adhesive properties at temperatures that would turn non-winter tires into hockey pucks.  We used to call 'em snow tires because that's what they were -- single-purpose tires which shone in the snow and sucked everywhere else.  They have evolved over the years into true multi-purpose winter tires.  Some of them are better on snow than others but I don't think the tire manufacturers themselves think in terms of "snow" vs. "winter" tires.  Some of their offerings are better in snow than others but they don't typically have more than one offering within a brand and size to choose from... at least not "snow" vs. "winter".  Michelin has their X-ice (now X-ice2) brand.  Bridgestone has their Blizzak brand, etc.  For example, while Bridgestone has some overlap in tire models in the Blizzak line which offer some choices in the same sizes, there's still nothing that jumps out at you and says "This is a snow tire" or "This is a winter tire".

My preference would be to retire the phrase "snow tire" completely out of our vernacular and simply say "winter tire".  If we keep on saying "snow tire", there will still be people out there that will resist changing their tires over come winter time because they either (a) are old enough to remember the squirmy old knobby relics from the past that the author of the article remembers or; (b) they assume that the tires are good for that one single purpose only.

As we know (and have often heard repeated) winter tires are beneficial, even without snow and ice, at temperatures below 6 degrees.  That's not my opinion, but a fact straight from the mouths of the tire evangelists and engineers at the major tire companies.  It doesn't matter whether you live in Toronto or some other clime that rarely sees significant, persistent accumulations of snow and ice.  Put on winter tires if you want to enjoy the driving experience for those several months where the mercury dips below 6 degrees.  

/Eric
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Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 08:46:22 am »
We need be careful when we start splitting hairs further from into performance / all seasonal / winter...

...now snow and ice.......

Soon there will be 'high humidity tires'; 'unseasonably high rainfall tires'; 'looks like them a storm clouds acoming, Cletus tires'; 'snowball-fight packing snow tires'; 'skipower perfect tires'; 'Glen Abby-like sand trap tires'...   ;D

Offline Angry Chicken

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 08:50:39 am »
We need be careful when we start splitting hairs further from into performance / all seasonal / winter...

...now snow and ice.......

Soon there will be 'high humidity tires'; 'unseasonably high rainfall tires'; 'looks like them a storm clouds acoming, Cletus tires'; 'snowball-fight packing snow tires'; 'skipower perfect tires'; 'Glen Abby-like sand trap tires'...   ;D

Agreed.  I think the author of the article wrote whatever came to mind.  Probably his editor *was* breathing down his neck, but because he was up against a deadline.

I don't want winter-tarmac, winter-snow, and winter-ice tires.  Neither does the consumer.  It's hard enough to get people on winter tires as it is without muddying the waters.

I think the article was poorly researched tbh.  IMHO of course.

/Eric

Offline Craig

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 09:56:10 am »
There are better posts in this forum about winter tires.  I always expect better out of a newspaper column, but I've generally learned to live with the disappointment.

I agree that this looks like it was banged out from a word processor with the intent to fill space.

Offline oversteer

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 01:42:56 pm »
"Practical examples from real life: in the Bridgestone Firestone family, the Bridgestone Blizzak is the winter tire, the Firestone Winter Force is the snowtire; in the Michelin/BFG/Uniroyal family, the Michelin X-Ice is the winter tire, and the BFGoodrich Winter Slalom is a snowtire; in the Pirelli world, the Snowsport is a winter tire and the Winter Carving is a snow tire."
....
"But what the hey, what do I know?"

Indeed. 


If you want to make distinctions, use studdable vs. studless and high-speed-rated vs. low-speed-rated and the tradeoffs.  "Snow" vs "winter" is a silly choice; for the most part the terms are interchangeable.  The tax writeoff idea is an interesting one though.

Offline Trainman

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2009, 02:18:06 pm »
So this article appeared in one of the countries most heavily read newspapers?  Is it any wonder the general population is confused about winter tires when they have this kind of "information" presented to them by someone who is supposed to be an expert?   ??? :shake:  (If he was not an expert, why was his column in the Wheels section?)
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Offline safristi

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 02:21:17 pm »
AD revenue.......................RING   $$$$$$    a BELL......................
THERE IS NO CURE FOR "LOTUS"......ONLY TREATMENT.....

Offline DKaz

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 02:55:42 pm »
To me, winter tires should be optimized for snow with afterthoughts that make the tire good on ice and acceptable on dry and wet. I have Yokohama IG20s which does just that, it's flawless in snow, confident on ice, and performs on dry and wet a bit better than the crappy OEM tires my car came with. I couldn't ask for more.

I believe the Michelin Xi2s and Bridgestone Blizzak WS-60s are on that. Unless you're living way up north or in rural areas where dry roads are rare in the winter, you can't afford to completely give up dry and wet characteristics.
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Offline ktm525

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 03:36:32 pm »
To me, winter tires should be optimized for snow with afterthoughts that make the tire good on ice and acceptable on dry and wet. I have Yokohama IG20s which does just that, it's flawless in snow, confident on ice, and performs on dry and wet a bit better than the crappy OEM tires my car came with. I couldn't ask for more.

I believe the Michelin Xi2s and Bridgestone Blizzak WS-60s are on that. Unless you're living way up north or in rural areas where dry roads are rare in the winter, you can't afford to completely give up dry and wet characteristics.

I'll go the other way. I think winter tires should be optimized for ice (IMO more dangerous than snow), good for snow and acceptable in the dry. Like my Hankook W300s.....

Offline safristi

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2009, 04:39:15 pm »
splittin' Hairs is that the latest GET A GRIP FAD........................... ;D............i know there hard ta get outta the slippy soap...in the ahem!! back-roads...............

Offline ktm525

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2009, 04:53:57 pm »
Would these split your hairs?


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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2009, 05:41:25 pm »
..make a nice CENTRE PARTING........of my Tonsure from my Scalp...perhaps!!! butt !! why crack a smile................... ;D

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2009, 10:50:26 pm »
If you want to make distinctions, use studdable vs. studless and high-speed-rated vs. low-speed-rated and the tradeoffs.

That's usually the way I think of things, too.

Stuck somewhere in the back of my head, I've also got an interesting account of the history of studless tires that I read a long time ago. Not sure how true it is (or whether I'm even remembering it right), but it still colours my perception of winter tires from different countries. Anyway, here it is:

Apparently, the first studless tires were invented in Japan. Traffic on their freeways was congested and slow at the best of times, but icy roads from freezing rain in the winter would often lead to huge traffic jams caused by simple, low-speed, rear-end pile-ups. The priority of the tire designers was to create a tire that had excellent straight-line stopping ability on ice. Since most cars were just crawling along in traffic, everything else was secondary.

In Europe, winter driving often meant high-speed freeway driving (think autobahn) on cold, wet roads. Ice and snow was still a concern, but not the priority.

In the Scandinavian countries, where even in the summer, speed limits are low and strictly enforced, high-speed winter driving is not a concern. Performance in deep snow is, though, and a tire still needs to handle decently at moderate speeds on all those stretches of empty, snow- and ice-covered secondary roads.

Now, I'm not saying that all winter tires can absolutely be categorized by country of origin, but it does make a certain amount of sense to me that local conditions would influence the tire engineers. Maybe less so in today's globalized economy, but I do find the idea interesting.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 10:56:45 pm by SiRCivic »

Offline Lexusfreak

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2009, 11:10:43 pm »
Tirerack tries to fine tune the differences with more detailed info per category...

  http://www.tirerack.com/tires/types/snows.jsp 

Offline blur911

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2009, 08:30:04 am »
There are better posts in this forum about winter tires.  I always expect better out of a newspaper column, but I've generally learned to live with the disappointment.

I agree that this looks like it was banged out from a word processor with the intent to fill space.


He lost me in the first line when he proved he doesn't even know the requirements for a tire to be marked M+S.

Offline weebl

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2009, 10:10:16 am »
I'll go the other way. I think winter tires should be optimized for ice (IMO more dangerous than snow), good for snow and acceptable in the dry. Like my Hankook W300s.....

Agreed.  Before I ever become a winter tire convert, snow was not a big issue on all-season tires.  Sure, performance was mediocre, but it was at a tolerable level, if you knew how to drive.  Ice on the other hand, was where I needed better performance.  Not just glare ice or black ice, but the ice that forms after snow has been driven on by lots of motorists.  Winter tires definitely improve performance in ice, and ones that are geared more towards ice are at the top of my list.
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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2009, 05:34:34 pm »
He lost me in the first line when he proved he doesn't even know the requirements for a tire to be marked M+S.

What are the requirements?  I've heard everything from "provides some degree of snow traction" to "no standard at all".

I don't know, I liked the article.  I do weigh snow and ice performance when choosing a tire - back in Toronto I used Michelin X-Ice tires because we mostly saw slush, packed snow, and ice.  In Orillia I sold the Michelins and bought a set of Goodyear Nordics, which I consider to be more of a snow tire.  They definitely pull better in the snow, and most of our roads are single-lane surrounded by snowbanks.  The one time I hit a large patch of ice and needed to stop, I just bumped myself into the snowbank.  With these tires I can go through an extra four to six inches of snow compared to the Michelins.



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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2009, 05:54:54 pm »
He lost me in the first line when he proved he doesn't even know the requirements for a tire to be marked M+S.

What are the requirements?  I've heard everything from "provides some degree of snow traction" to "no standard at all".


The author of the article was close - on first reading I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was just using a bit of journalistic license to make for a more entertaining story.

Anyway, I believe a tire simply has to have a certain ratio of tread to void to qualify for the M&S designation. So it's not quite as simple as stated in the article, but pretty close.

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Re: Differences between 'Winter' & 'Snow' Tires...Excellent write up
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2009, 05:56:37 pm »
He lost me in the first line when he proved he doesn't even know the requirements for a tire to be marked M+S.

What are the requirements?  I've heard everything from "provides some degree of snow traction" to "no standard at all".

I don't know, I liked the article.  I do weigh snow and ice performance when choosing a tire - back in Toronto I used Michelin X-Ice tires because we mostly saw slush, packed snow, and ice.  In Orillia I sold the Michelins and bought a set of Goodyear Nordics, which I consider to be more of a snow tire.  They definitely pull better in the snow, and most of our roads are single-lane surrounded by snowbanks.  The one time I hit a large patch of ice and needed to stop, I just bumped myself into the snowbank.  With these tires I can go through an extra four to six inches of snow compared to the Michelins.

Quote
If a tire has MS, M+S, M/S or M&S on it, then it meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) guidelines for a mud and snow tire. For a tire to receive the Mud and Snow designation, it must meet these geometric requirements (taken from the bulletin "RMA Snow Tire Definitions for Passenger and Light Truck (LT) Tires"):

      1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:
            a. Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
            b. A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
            c. Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.

      2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.

It is only a tread pattern requirement, not a compound requirement, and there are no tests to pass for this designation, so yeah, it doesn't mean much, but it certainly wouldn't let a F1 tire by.

I simply don't agree that there are now only "winter tires" and "snow tires".     Tire companies are now all marketing them as winter tires,  but as pointed out in that category you can find tires aimed at just about any aspect and condition of winter driving you can think of, not just snow.